Casey Stengel and Dave Roberts...

[oldjudge]

Great teams don’t necessarily have a boatload of HOFers. More likely than not they have a bunch of really good players who just fall short of HOF caliber. The great Yankee teams of the late 1990s were great because of guys like Paul O’Neill, Tina Martinez, David Cone, Scott Brosius, David Wells, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte, etc. Same with the Yankee teams of the fifties and early sixties.
As for Stengel, I think he was a horrible manager. He cost the Yankees the 1960 series by not starting Ford, after he requested to be started on short rest, in game 7. I don’t think Robert’s is particularly bad or particularly good, just an average stat executor.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Great teams don’t necessarily have a boatload of HOFers. More likely than not they have a bunch of really good players who just fall short of HOF caliber. The great Yankee teams of the late 1990s were great because of guys like Paul O’Neill, Tina Martinez, David Cone, Scott Brosius, David Wells, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte, etc. Same with the Yankee teams of the fifties and early sixties.
As for Stengel, I think he was a horrible manager. He cost the Yankees the 1960 series by not starting Ford, after he requested to be started on short rest, in game 7. I don’t think Robert’s is particularly bad or particularly good, just an average stat executor.

I dunno Jay. It wasn't short rest-- it was NO rest. Whitey had just pitched a complete game the day before. Hardly seems reckless for the manager to go to someone else, regardless of what his Ace says. Besides, they had a three-run lead with 6 outs to go when the bullpen blew it. So unless you think Whitey Ford would have been pitching, and effectively, for his 17th inning in around 24 hours, I don't see how Casey's decision cost the team the series.

[oldjudge]

It would have been a moot point if he started Ford in game one. Ford threw two complete game shutouts in games three and six. If he had started game one he would have been rested for a game seven if necessary. BTW, the Yankees fired Stengel after that debacle.

[G1911]

Berra, possibly the greatest catcher ever

Dimaggio (a super star through 1950, 3 rings with Stengel) and Mantle, 2 of the top 5 or so greatest center fielders ever.

Ford, one of the greatest lefties.

If the Stengel Yankees teams didn't have 'top tier' players as well as lots of the really good variety, I am hard pressed to think of a single team that ever has. The Yankees were not a collection of good players lacking superstars, by any definition that does not exclude basically every single team in baseball history.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

It would have been a moot point if he started Ford in game one. Ford threw two complete game shutouts in games three and six. If he had started game one he would have been rested for a game seven if necessary. BTW, the Yankees fired Stengel after that debacle.

I see- you changed your argument. Hindsight is usually 20-20. The last time the Yankees were in the World Series, 1958, Whitey was credited with zero of his team's 4 wins. In his final start, Game 6, he did not survive the second inning, and was relieved by Art Ditmar, who bailed him out and the team rallied in extra innings. In 1960, Whitey was only 12-9, and Ditmar led the team in wins. So starting Ditmar in Game 1 in favor of Ford was not without reason. But in true fan and media fashion it became beyond dispute that the Yankees would have won if Ford pitched games 1, 4 and 7. Of course, the Yankees scored only 4 runs in the opener and 2 in game 4, as opposed to the 10 and 12 they gave Whitey in his starts, but no doubt he would have still stymied the opponent and carried the day. Open and shut case. Let's release the 70 year old manager--HE cost us the series.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't disagree that the pundits and world-renown baseball experts in New York to this day blame Stengel for not starting Ford in Game 1. I do disagree with the logic that it was the reason Pittsburgh won the Series.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I see- you changed your argument. Hindsight is usually 20-20. The last time the Yankees were in the World Series, 1958, Whitey was credited with zero of his team's 4 wins. In his final start, Game 6, he did not survive the second inning, and was relieved by Art Ditmar, who bailed him out and the team rallied in extra innings. In 1960, Whitey was only 12-9, and Ditmar led the team in wins. So starting Ditmar in Game 1 in favor of Ford was not without reason. But in true fan and media fashion it became beyond dispute that the Yankees would have won if Ford pitched games 1, 4 and 7. Of course, the Yankees scored only 4 runs in the opener and 2 in game 4, as opposed to the 10 and 12 they gave Whitey in his starts, but no doubt he would have still stymied the opponent and carried the day. Open and shut case. Let's release the 70 year old manager--HE cost us the series.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't disagree that the pundits and world-renown baseball experts in New York to this day blame Stengel for not starting Ford in Game 1. I do disagree with the logic that it was the reason Pittsburgh won the Series.

From 1953-1960 Whitey Ford finished no lower than 8th in ERA, ranging from 2.01 to 3.06. In 1960 Ford finished 5th in ERA. At that point, Ford's career post season ERA was 2.81. Ford was absolutely the ace of the staff. He had consistently been an elite pitcher. He should have started game 1. Ditmar at that point had two good seasons, which would be his only two. You don't start someone like that over Whitey Ford.

Stengel started Whitey Ford in game 1 in 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1958. After Stengel was replaced by Ralph Houk, Houk started Whitey Ford in game 1 in 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964. It is not hindsight to say it was a mistake to not start Ford in game 1.

Stengel wasn't replaced only because he mismanaged the 1960 World Series. The Yankees owners were upset with Stengel back to 1957. He was observed falling asleep during games. His players were partying too much, including a fight at the Copacabana that resulted in Hank Bauer being arrested. Stengel would have been let go in 1958 if the Yankees didn't come back to win the World Series. Not winning in 1959 & 1960 made it easy to move on to Ralph Houk, who led the Yankees to Championships in 1961 & 1962.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by rats60

From 1953-1960 Whitey Ford finished no lower than 8th in ERA, ranging from 2.01 to 3.06. In 1960 Ford finished 5th in ERA. At that point, Ford's career post season ERA was 2.81. Ford was absolutely the ace of the staff. He had consistently been an elite pitcher. He should have started game 1. Ditmar at that point had two good seasons, which would be his only two. You don't start someone like that over Whitey Ford.

Stengel started Whitey Ford in game 1 in 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1958. After Stengel was replaced by Ralph Houk, Houk started Whitey Ford in game 1 in 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964. It is not hindsight to say it was a mistake to not start Ford in game 1.

Stengel wasn't replaced only because he mismanaged the 1960 World Series. The Yankees owners were upset with Stengel back to 1957. He was observed falling asleep during games. His players were partying too much, including a fight at the Copacabana that resulted in Hank Bauer being arrested. Stengel would have been let go in 1958 if the Yankees didn't come back to win the World Series. Not winning in 1959 & 1960 made it easy to move on to Ralph Houk, who led the Yankees to Championships in 1961 & 1962.

As I said before "I don't disagree that the pundits and world-renown baseball experts in New York to this day blame Stengel for not starting Ford in Game 1. I do disagree with the logic that it was the reason Pittsburgh won the Series."

No one says Ford could not or should not have started Game 1. It is simply not even close to a given that it would have made the Yankees winners of the Series. It also shifts blame from a pathetic bullpen effort in game 7 that coughed up a three-run lead with six outs to go. Actually more than coughed it up-- surrendering 5 to the Bucs in the 8th and requiring the offense to come back for it to even get to the bottom of the 9th.

You are correct that Stengel's fate was not determined by that loss-- the parties had been coy about his future before the Series even started, given his age. Houk was hired because he was basically offered the Tigers job and was going out the door if the Yankees didn't act, although that doesn't mean Stengel would have stuck around otherwise. And no doubt Yankee upper management was demanding and unrealistic in expecting annual World Series championships, much like now. See Exhibit "A"-- Yogi Berra. Thanks for the 99 wins in '64 as a rookie skipper Yogi, but losing to Gibson and the Cardinals in seven is inexcusable. You're fired. (Probably because he didn't pitch Whitey in that game 7, even though Ford had pitched the opener and got torched).

As for the notion that Yankee player partying was a factor, I doubt it. If so, Houk and followers did no better, at least if you believe Jim Bouton's tales of Mickey, Whitey et. al's activities in the 60s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The trouble is not that players have sex the night before a game. It's that they stay out all night looking for it. Casey Stengel