Wow psa blowing away competitors

[brianp-beme]

I saw the title and my brain instantly translated it to "PSA blowing off customers"

brianp(arker)-beme

[rats60]

PSA is grading 1.083 million cards because the have the capacity to. They have invested in their business so they can grade that many cards because the demand is there. I don't see that changing in the near term. Their bulk pricing is 18, it was 10 with specials at 8 before the pandemic. There are people holding cards waiting for PSA's pricing to go lower. PSA will continue to adjust their prices to keep operating at these levels.

[jchcollins]

Market share, blah blah blah. SGC isn't trying to be PSA or have their volume. They are trying to have zero or minimal backlog, which they have managed to become wildly successful at, at least over the last 6 months plus.

If you are into subbing or buying PSA slabs for your collection only out of consideration for the $ and turnaround, I get it. But in virtually every other way - customer service, pricing, turn time, presentation - SGC has made strides over and above PSA that are noticeable. And at least for vintage, please don't try to say that PSA is tougher than SGC anymore. It's simply not true. Both have their quirks and differences (PSA tougher on corners maybe, SGC tougher on centering) and things like that, but SGC is not exactly the cakewalk for vintage that BVG historically is.

PSA may have won at least the early long term game with their registry, but increasingly just for a professional presentation and an accurately graded card, it's difficult to see them maintaining a 30-50% resale advantage in the long term to come. I would agree that it has defied logic so far, but SGC is the company you see changing and making progress in the last 5 years and doing things differently, PSA not so much. Either the backlogs are endless, or the prices are unreasonable - or some combination of both.

I'm leaning more towards raw vintage cards myself in the days ahead, simply because I've realized that I don't actually value a bunch of things in my "eye appeal" collection that I've ostensibly ascribed to for years - but that said for the few things I still want in a slab for whatever reason - I'm sticking with SGC for submissions. When buying 3rd party I buy the card first and not the slab, thus I have a variety of slab brand labels - but have only ever submitted myself with SGC.

[frankbmd]

Could these numbers be as accurate as political polls in late October?

Just a thought.

[irv]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Could these numbers be as accurate as political polls in late October?

Just a thought.

This^^^
What is Gemrate, who owns them, are they credible and how long have they been around for?

Not saying anything nefarious or fishy is going on, but this is the 1st time I have ever heard of them so I am just curious is all.

Edit: Just found this. I'm skeptical, but that's me.
https://www.gemrate.com/faq

[nwobhm]

If the combined total of 1.3 million is real, which I doubt, there is one hell of a crash coming in the graded market.

[EldoEsq]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Market share, blah blah blah. SGC isn't trying to be PSA or have their volume. They are trying to have zero or minimal backlog, which they have managed to become wildly successful at, at least over the last 6 months plus.

If you are into subbing or buying PSA slabs for your collection only out of consideration for the $ and turnaround, I get it. But in virtually every other way - customer service, pricing, turn time, presentation - SGC has made strides over and above PSA that are noticeable. And at least for vintage, please don't try to say that PSA is tougher than SGC anymore. It's simply not true. Both have their quirks and differences (PSA tougher on corners maybe, SGC tougher on centering) and things like that, but SGC is not exactly the cakewalk for vintage that BVG historically is.

PSA may have won at least the early long term game with their registry, but increasingly just for a professional presentation and accurately graded card, it's difficult to see them maintaining a 30-50% resale advantage in the long term to come. I would agree that it has defied logic so far, but SGC is the company you see making progress in the last 5 years and doing things differently, PSA not so much. Either the backlogs are endless, or the prices are unreasonable - or some combination of both.

I'm leaning more towards raw vintage cards myself in the days ahead, simply because I've realized that I don't actually value a bunch of things in my "eye appeal" collection that I've ostensibly ascribed to for years - but that said for the few things I still want in a slab for whatever reason - I'm sticking with SGC for submissions. When buying 3rd party I buy the card first and not the slab, thus I have a variety of slab brand labels - but have only ever submitted myself with SGC.

Come on...seriously. you are saying that SGC wants no backlog. They just don't like money.

You do know the true reason why the turnaround is like 24 hrs for SGC right?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[dnilgis]

Originally Posted by EldoEsq

Come on...seriously. you are saying that SGC wants no backlog. They just don't like money.

You do know the true reason why the turnaround is like 24 hrs for SGC right?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

No, please tell

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by EldoEsq

Come on...seriously. you are saying that SGC wants no backlog. They just don't like money.

You do know the true reason why the turnaround is like 24 hrs for SGC right?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

So they’re just lying? Ok. They were overrun with volume they couldn’t handle in the summer of 2020, with the old lower prices. They raised them in order to slow submissions and get through the backlog, which they did. There were a few hiccups yes, but it’s largely worked. If they wanted to be PSA clones with economy subs and months-long backlogs, they could lower sub prices to $10 or less and easily overwhelm the queues again. Many of those scenarios have actually happened since 2020 at this point as they were trying to figure out the price points. Maybe not everyone wants to wait months or a year to get their cards back in the name of some great special or economy price? I don’t think it’s crazy to think that SGC might want to differentiate their business model in the ways they have instead of just blindly / slowly emulating PSA. Their stated goal was to continue to grow while maintaining turn times that were not PSA cringeworthy. Obviously that will take longer to do than if their only goal were a quick money grab.


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[gonefishin]

It is true that some companies, privately owned primarily, may not desire to be the biggest company out there. There are still some companies that just want to make a decent living for themselves and their employees. Just guessing that demand at the time necessitated SGC to hire more employees to keep up with demand when PSA and BGS suspended their services. When the flood gates opened again, customers started submitting back to the companies that failed them previously. Hence, SGC I'm guessing wanted to maintain their upscaled work force but is struggling because customers went back to their "old girlfriend". New hires and proper training costs money, lots of money. It would be a hard blow to turn around and lay off those new hires that came aboard with the expectation they would be there for the long term.

We must ask our self at what point is it "not ok" to tolerate backlog, poor customer service, etc. etc. etc. It's not ok when you are awaiting the return of a treasure that has been out of your possession for months and see where the same company is touting submissions of 1B new submissions for the month.

I watched the SGC video. It pained me to watch it, as all my experiences with SGC have been positive. I can't say as much for BGS and for sure PSA. However, I turned around and submitted a couple of bulk submissions to PSA because of the lowered pricing, and yes, I paid the membership fee in order to do so. My little submissions won't create change if I don't submit them to PSA. However, they may have a small impact on SGC, with whom I have been very happy with.

There are cases, photos for example and sealed pack certification, where I have no other options. Not the case with cards. I have options. The main question I need to ask myself is, if I submitted them to SGC when I had no other options, and was happy with the price and service, why would I go back to a company that basically closed the door on me.

Does anyone else feel the same or is it just me?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

It is true that some companies, privately owned primarily, may not desire to be the biggest company out there. There are still some companies that just want to make a decent living for themselves and their employees. Just guessing that demand at the time necessitated SGC to hire more employees to keep up with demand when PSA and BGS suspended their services. When the flood gates opened again, customers started submitting back to the companies that failed them previously. Hence, SGC I'm guessing wanted to maintain their upscaled work force but is struggling because customers went back to their "old girlfriend". New hires and proper training costs money, lots of money. It would be a hard blow to turn around and lay off those new hires that came aboard with the expectation they would be there for the long term.

We must ask our self at what point is it "not ok" to tolerate backlog, poor customer service, etc. etc. etc. It's not ok when you are awaiting the return of a treasure that has been out of your possession for months and see where the same company is touting submissions of 1B new submissions for the month.

I watched the SGC video. It pained me to watch it, as all my experiences with SGC have been positive. I can't say as much for BGS and for sure PSA. However, I turned around and submitted a couple of bulk submissions to PSA because of the lowered pricing, and yes, I paid the membership fee in order to do so. My little submissions won't create change if I don't submit them to PSA. However, they may have a small impact on SGC, with whom I have been very happy with.

There are cases, photos for example and sealed pack certification, where I have no other options. Not the case with cards. I have options. The main question I need to ask myself is, if I submitted them to SGC when I had no other options, and was happy with the price and service, why would I go back to a company that basically closed the door on me.

Does anyone else feel the same or is it just me?

I’ll have to admit that I’m not entirely sure what you’re suggesting…you made so many points and counterpoints that it’s hard to evaluate whether I feel the same.

Want to boil it down a little for us?

It almost seems like you’re suggesting that we should all dump PSA for their past failures, but then you admit that you’ve personally gone right back to them, including paying your membership fee to get bulk pricing.

But maybe you had another message in mind?

[Johnny630]

I do like SGC for vintage however what upset me the most was completely giving up on-site grading. More specifically at the National. Especially at last year's National 2021 the first one after the Pandemic. The pre-grade at this year's National was half-ass if you ask me.

SGC used to grade on-site twice a year at Philly, Once In Strongsville, along with at the National. Come to think of it in 2015 and 16 they would do White Plains too! Now Zip. At least PSA does The National and Long Beach on-site.

Maybe this will come back. Idk not holding my breath.

[gonefishin]

Nope, you hit it right on the head. I did it - I went right back to PSA and submitted about 40-50 cards under their vintage grading special. I guess I'm just trying to figure out why I did it when I was very satisfied with SGC. Maybe it was because in my mind they would hold more market value with PSA than SGC. Maybe it's because I've been submitting cards to PSA forever.

The comparative submission numbers were stunning.

I would just find it interesting to know why other members went back to PSA that were also very satisfied with SGC. Maybe it's not one thing but a combination of several; market acceptance, PSA Registry, Branding, advertising, location, public shows, etc. etc.

By the way, I'm retired and don't have a "Dog In the Fight" one way or the other.

I'll have to figure out why I did on my own.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

It is true that some companies, privately owned primarily, may not desire to be the biggest company out there. There are still some companies that just want to make a decent living for themselves and their employees. Just guessing that demand at the time necessitated SGC to hire more employees to keep up with demand when PSA and BGS suspended their services.

Right. I'm guessing that SGC had a desire to become somewhat more than the boutique shop that they were in say 2000, or 2005 - but they pulled a pretty major gaffe in 2020 with the whole "We're open, send us your cards!" campaign when they got big eyes at the idea of PSA being shut down, even if temporarily. For once, and for the first time ever I believe - collectors called their bluff and absolutely inundated them. They had to backpedal and hire more employees immediately to keep from drowning, and even so it took them months to clear the 2020 backlog. Quality slipped during this time as well, as I know their move to treat centering more strictly got wildly out of hand at one point around that timeframe - new graders were giving cards that should have been like 7's and higher 5's and lower due to centering alone. Luckily it seems they fixed that problem relatively quickly.

Again, I could be wrong but I'm guessing some of SGC's recent growth trends were unintended and just had more to do what the market dealt them, and with some of the other stuff - you have to imagine it's going to be different in ways with Peter and the younger folks in charge. I just don't see them setting their sights on grading a million cards in whatever period of time to keep up with PSA on a chart. Many people that submit to SGC regularly have reasons why they DON'T submit to PSA. What would be the point of trying to lead all TPG's in volume if you had to totally change who you were to do that?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by rats60

PSA is grading 1.083 million cards because the have the capacity to. They have invested in their business so they can grade that many cards because the demand is there. I don't see that changing in the near term. Their bulk pricing is 18, it was 10 with specials at 8 before the pandemic. There are people holding cards waiting for PSA's pricing to go lower. PSA will continue to adjust their prices to keep operating at these levels.

Kind of surprised some private equity people haven't swooped in and bought SGC, poured money into it, and turned it into a real company. Where someone actually does normal things you'd expect from a business, like, you know, answer the fukkin phone.

[Rad_Hazard]

I'm not surprised that PSA outsells SGC, but SGC is just leagues better than PSA in my opinion. Lightning fast turnaround and the cases are much more aesthetic.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

and the cases are much more aesthetic.

The black insert was a good idea, and the contrast makes many cards pop. I will admit I’m not a huge fan of the corner cutouts and “framing mat” concept of securing the cards; they’ve had noted issues with this in the past - both with cards that aren’t held in place tightly enough, and jagged corner cutouts with the potential to damage card edges. For the latter before they fixed the issue, I popped more than a few SGC slabs, cursing under my breath the whole time.

PSA’s enclosure and rail system isn’t perfect, but it’s been less problematic overall than SGC’s gasket insert. All bets are off however, when PSA (frequently recently…) just says screw it, and uses the wrong sized slab alltogether, oftentimes leaving a valuable card floating between rails that are not sized for it.

I think if SGC could find a way to ditch the gasket for rails and still keep the black background contrast, that might be something worth looking into. I will say that even if the gasket is imperfect, SGC’s cards seem to move a lot less naturally in the enclosed space anyway for whatever reason — thus rendering the gasket as less of an issue. At the end of the day it is just a different approach, I suppose. And really just comes down to personal preference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ClementeFanOh]

PSA can have the quantity, I'll take quality every day- that's SGC. PSA needs
to be "too big to fail" in the eyes of many investors. Trent King

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Kind of surprised some private equity people haven't swooped in and bought SGC, poured money into it, and turned it into a real company. Where someone actually does normal things you'd expect from a business, like, you know, answer the fukkin phone.

I've raised the thought/question before of CSG's parent company doing just that. Then keep SGC for the pre-war/older vintage, and continue with CSG doing the newer vintage and modern stuff, along with all the non-sports cards and stuff.

I thought CSG was supposed to be working on their own Registry as well. If they can get that up and going, and then include SGC in it, can see that have a positive effect on both of them going forward.

[BCauley]

I see these posts comparing number of cards graded over the previous month frequently enough on social media. It just reminds me of McDonald's and their "billions and billions served" slogan, assuming they still do it.

Sure, they serve a lot more burgers but they're far from the best burgers around.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by BCauley

I see these posts comparing number of cards graded over the previous month frequently enough on social media. It just reminds me of McDonald's and their "billions and billions served" slogan, assuming they still do it.

Sure, they serve a lot more burgers but they're far from the best burgers around.

That is a great comparison.

They also both regularly get your order wrong.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Kind of surprised some private equity people haven't swooped in and bought SGC, poured money into it, and turned it into a real company. Where someone actually does normal things you'd expect from a business, like, you know, answer the fukkin phone.

I can only imagine trying to explain a finer point of something about cards to a guy in a call center somewhere....

I haven't had an acceptable call to a large company in years, between the outright lies and willful lack of understanding anything.

I've told a couple they should rename it to the "customer disservice" department.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I can only imagine trying to explain a finer point of something about cards to a guy in a call center somewhere....

I haven't had an acceptable call to a large company in years, between the outright lies and willful lack of understanding anything.

I've told a couple they should rename it to the "customer disservice" department.

I wanted to contact Toyota customer service the other day and they've shut down the email option, you literally cannot email them. And the phone option is a menu tree cluster fork that you can't bypass by saying representative or customer service.

You know who is actually good now IMO is ebay, very easy to reach on the phone.

[painthistorian]

Any company that refuses to answer a phone call for customer service, I will not transact with that company anymore no matter how much I liked them in the past. It does not matter the product or service, whether is autos or cable service
, baseball cards or anything else, dont support companies that do not even allow you to speak to them.
SGC made a huge mistake not allowing phone inquiries, no calls after Covid became a lame excuse.

[icurnmedic]

Originally Posted by painthistorian

Any company that refuses to answer a phone call for customer service, I will not transact with that company anymore no matter how much I liked them in the past. It does not matter the product or service, whether is autos or cable service
, baseball cards or anything else, dont support companies that do not even allow you to speak to them.
SGC made a huge mistake not allowing phone inquiries, no calls after Covid became a lame excuse.

Yep , pretty much sums it up for me as well.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by painthistorian

Any company that refuses to answer a phone call for customer service, I will not transact with that company anymore no matter how much I liked them in the past. It does not matter the product or service, whether is autos or cable service
, baseball cards or anything else, dont support companies that do not even allow you to speak to them.
SGC made a huge mistake not allowing phone inquiries, no calls after Covid became a lame excuse.

And at PSA you will be #43 in the queue by 7:30AM PST M-F and by 8 you can try your call tomorrow. Both companies blow on so many different levels. Hasn't SGC handed out their email addresses? I thought they had at one time and were always great with replying.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And the phone option is a menu tree cluster fork

I haven't seen it before, and I salute you if you are the person to have come up with ' menu tree cluster fork'...so very appropriate for the looping hell that can be an automated customer service phone situation.

I can almost see a graphic of a phone in the shape of a fork with tines all twisting in knots and curving back on themselves.

Brian

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wanted to contact Toyota customer service the other day and they've shut down the email option, you literally cannot email them. And the phone option is a menu tree cluster fork that you can't bypass by saying representative or customer service.

You know who is actually good now IMO is ebay, very easy to reach on the phone.

They've been chasing me about the airbag on my POS Sienna for a while.
They even came out and left a note on the car!
Like WTF, just bring the d*** airbag if you're making the trip.
And while they're at it, some rims that don't leak air down to flat in 2 days because unlike real car companies they haven't figured out that uncoated aluminum and salt water from wintry roads don't mix.

Odd about Ebay, they used to be in the "wait a couple hours if you can even find the secret phone number" club.