Pujols, Mr. September

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's not that he had a stretch like this that bothers me, it's that he just so happened to have it when he did, in the final games of his career and trying to catch Ruth. The odds ex ante before the first of the four games that he would get 9 RBI over the next four games and pass Ruth must beenormous I would think. I'm not smart enough to be sure, but I think your analysis is missing the context.

Sure, in isolation. It’s very unlikely a player will do that over a specifically chosen 4 game period.

What do you think happened? The pitchers all decided independently to groove Pujols free hits?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Sure, in isolation. It’s very unlikely a player will do that over a specifically chosen 4 game period.

What do you think happened? The pitchers all decided independently to groove Pujols free hits?

Well I am speculating as to all of it, but I could imagine, with nothing at all on the line, a general understanding on the team that if the situation presented where Pujols was up with men on, whoever was pitching would lay up a bit. Again, sample size sure, but it seems strange he has no hits in the series except in RBI situations. It doesn't take much to make a pitch more hittable against one of the great batters of all time, you can take a little off a fastball or hang a curve slightly and the world won't be wiser..

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well I am speculating as to all of it, but I could imagine, with nothing at all on the line, a general understanding on the team that if the situation presented where Pujols was up with men on, whoever was pitching would lay up a bit. Again, sample size sure, but it seems strange he has no hits in the series except in RBI situations. It doesn't take much to make a pitch more hittable against one of the great batters of all time, you can take a little off a fastball or hang a curve slightly and the world won't be wiser..

So the idea is that the last 4 games, the pitchers, independently and without a conspiracy to do so, grooved Pujols pitches only when runners were on base and multiple runs were on the table?

We could look at the game scores, the pitchers contract performance and reputation to see if getting rocked could hurt them materially, etc.

My personal opinion is that this scenario seems very unlikely on the surface.

[gonefishin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well I am speculating as to all of it, but I could imagine, with nothing at all on the line, a general understanding on the team that if the situation presented where Pujols was up with men on, whoever was pitching would lay up a bit. Again, sample size sure, but it seems strange he has no hits in the series except in RBI situations. It doesn't take much to make a pitch more hittable against one of the great batters of all time, you can take a little off a fastball or hang a curve slightly and the world won't be wiser..

I get it - for some reason you dislike Pujols and absolutely refuse to give the man his credit. That's ok. You couldn't get enough support on the other Pujols thread because it was all pro - Pujols - you had to start your own just to try and tarnish or lessen what he has done. According to your previous posts they should also put Trout's name in parentheses beside Pujols' name because he was the reason Pujols is 2d all time - ALL TIME - in RBI's and 4th all time - ALL TIME - in home runs!

Now, you have implied, stated, imagined, speculated, whatever - that whoever was pitching (Eddie Cicotte, Scherzer, DeGrom, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Walter Johnson, Christy, Nolan Ryan, etc. etc. it doesn't matter) would just groove him a pitch with men on! Are you kidding me.

All the statistics you quote are to diminish Pujol's career and records. Find someone to brow beat (Trevor Bauer, Tatis, etc.) that is more susceptible that we can believe, there are plenty available.

I do get a kick out of reading all your researched data - I always just kind of sit back and think "Who in the Hell would check all that crap!".

It's time to go - I have to watch "Eight Men Out" which of course is the true documentary of exactly what happened in the 1919 World Series and the greatest baseball team of all time (except they cheated).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

I get it - for some reason you dislike Pujols and absolutely refuse to give the man his credit. That's ok. You couldn't get enough support on the other Pujols thread because it was all pro - Pujols - you had to start your own just to try and tarnish or lessen what he has done. According to your previous posts they should also put Trout's name in parentheses beside Pujols' name because he was the reason Pujols is 2d all time - ALL TIME - in RBI's and 4th all time - ALL TIME - in home runs!

Now, you have implied, stated, imagined, speculated, whatever - that whoever was pitching (Eddie Cicotte, Scherzer, DeGrom, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Walter Johnson, Christy, Nolan Ryan, etc. etc. it doesn't matter) would just groove him a pitch with men on! Are you kidding me.

All the statistics you quote are to diminish Pujol's career and records. Find someone to brow beat (Trevor Bauer, Tatis, etc.) that is more susceptible that we can believe, there are plenty available.

I do get a kick out of reading all your researched data - I always just kind of sit back and think "Who in the Hell would check all that crap!".

It's time to go - I have to watch "Eight Men Out" which of course is the true documentary of exactly what happened in the 1919 World Series and the greatest baseball team of all time (except they cheated).

Pujols is a very great player, I don't dislike him at all. If you can't acknowledge hitting behind Trout did a great deal for his RBI totals, you don't know anything about baseball, what can I say? Stop the sycophantic hero worship already. As for his amazing closing run, It's a fair question and we're discussing it is all. Nobody else here takes it personally or feels the need to attack.

[G1911]

Pujols is where he is on the RBI list because of Trout. He spent several years as a DH/1B with a below average bat but still getting RBI’s because the Angels kept him hitting behind Trout who gets on base at an absurd rate.

I don’t see how this can be argued, on reasonable factual grounds, to be false.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Pujols is where he is on the RBI list because of Trout. He spent several years as a DH/1B with a below average bat but still getting RBI’s because the Angels kept him hitting behind Trout who gets on base at an absurd rate.

I don’t see how this can be argued, on reasonable factual grounds, to be false.

I remember Bill James ran some simulation where he replaced one of the KC Royals with a hypothetical batter who walked every time. All else being equal, the guy batting behind him, who was just an average player, had something like 160 RBI lol. Of course it matters.

[ClementeFanOh]

Dear God- "mountain, meet mole hill"

1) There is no conspiracy about Pujols reaching HR history. There wasn't a
secret meeting of the pitcher's union in which they voted to groove
pitches, so he could reach a milestone while they become answers to
obscure trivia questions.

2) Albert Pujols has reached his achievements because of his OWN
performance. The RBI total certainly is influenced by who bats ahead of
him- as it is for every single player. He doesn't make out the lineup cards
and does not control who reaches base in front of him, who the opposing
pitcher is, etc. Yes, several of his Angels years were below average- for
him!- as he got older. I continue to be amazed that some "fans" continue
to be befuddled by the reality that the skill of most professional athletes,
even great ones, diminishes with age. Google machine reveals a career
average of 296 with 2000+ RBI and 700+ HR. He's Mickey Mantle with
175 more HR and 500+ more RBI (and save it, I know they played
different positions and different amounts of seasons- point is he's been a
killer player).

3) The problem with dissecting something is that it's dead when you're
done. Give it a rest!


Trent King

[Republicaninmass]

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