Al mvp

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by G1911

Judge will win easily and I would probably vote for him.

I am not convinced that he actually had more value than Ohtani though.

211 OPS+ vs a 145 OPS+ and being one of the best pitchers in baseball and an ERA+ of 172.

Is Judge really better than a star hitter who is also one of the best pitchers? I can see it either way, they have to be close.

Agreed. Ohtani's numbers are unreal. He'll probably finish 2nd in Cy Young and would finish with MVP votes if he never threw an inning given those offensive numbers. But he did win last year, and I believe there's a slight bias against back-to-back awards. Judge's numbers are also certainly MVP worthy though.

It is interesting to imagine what the sentiment would be if those players put up the exact same numbers but played for each other's teams. I would expect the Yankees to still make the playoffs and likely win the division comfortably and also expect that the Angels would miss the playoffs, 62 HRs etc notwithstanding.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You're a GM. Which of these choices do you make?

1. Replace your average RF with Judge.
2. Replace your average DH with Ohtani, AND replace one of your OK starters with Ohtani.

I could be wrong but wouldn't most choose option 2?

[packs]

I think about Ohtani in terms of if he were to play with the Yankees and wonder if they'd commit to two-way play the same way the Angels have. I just can't imagine the Yankees wanting to risk their ace separating his shoulder stealing second base or something. They already went through that with Chien-Ming Wang and threw a big stink then about him having to hit. Wang was never the same after that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I think about Ohtani in terms of if he were to play with the Yankees and wonder if they'd commit to two-way play the same way the Angels have. I just can't imagine the Yankees wanting to risk their ace separating his shoulder stealing second base or something. They already went through that with Chien-Ming Wang and threw a big stink then about him having to hit. Wang was never the same after that.

If he had less power it would be an easy choice, but how do you just decide not to play a guy who is going to hit 30-40 HR for you?

[packs]

Pitching is king though, especially in the play offs. I don't know how I'd feel if my ace got hit on the hand in the time of universal DH.

I just wonder if it fits in with the Yankees.

[mrreality68]

they both are great players who had amazing seasons.

Great facts presented on this thread for both players

To me it is all about winning and this year Judge carried the Yankees to an AL East title and the playoffs. Take him off and they probably miss the playoffs. Take Ohtani off the team and they are still bad and still miss it.

So the MVP is Judge

[D. Bergin]

Almost any other year in the AL, Ohtani wins it. This year, it goes to Judge.

I have a feeling both players are going to be fleeting talents with short primes. I hope I'm wrong.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

they both are great players who had amazing seasons.

Great facts presented on this thread for both players

To me it is all about winning and this year Judge carried the Yankees to an AL East title and the playoffs. Take him off and they probably miss the playoffs. Take Ohtani off the team and they are still bad and still miss it.

So the MVP is Judge

I disagree. I believe the Yankees win that division with or without Judge.

On the other hand, Ohtani won it last year with a team that wasn't close to sniffing the playoffs. Trout won it twice playing for the same lousy sub .500 team. If winning is a requirement, then they should say so and limit voting to those who play for winning teams or teams that make the playoffs.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by packs

Pitching is king though, especially in the play offs. I don't know how I'd feel if my ace got hit on the hand in the time of universal DH.

I just wonder if it fits in with the Yankees.

...and Ohtani didn't make the playoffs...so pitching being 'king there' is mute.


Andre Dawson won the MVP on a last place team...are you telling me that his being there kept them from being worse?


If you're going to vote a player on a last place team MVP, then it should have been Tony Gwynn: led league with 218 H and .370 BA - had 119 RS; 13 triples; 56 SBs and finished in the top ten MLB wide in virtually all the new analytics...Andre wasn't on a single one.


once again, it's not most outstanding season, it's MOST VALUABLE PLAYER (to his team).

.

[clydepepper]

It wouldn't be a bad time for the second set of co-MVPs.

On Judge: Not only did he break a 61-year old record, he carried the Yankee offense during some long draughts for the others. I seriously doubt that, without him, they would have made even these expanded playoffs.


On Ohtani: He's doing things that have NEVER been done before...that is, before last year. It's still amazing, and you could argue that this year was even better than last year, but, if he could ever be accused of carrying his team, it wasn't enough- they didn't come close to the playoffs.

Better season- I give Ohtani the edge.

MOST VALUABLE - Judge.



.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're a GM. Which of these choices do you make?

1. Replace your average RF with Judge.
2. Replace your average DH with Ohtani, AND replace one of your OK starters with Ohtani.

I could be wrong but wouldn't most choose option 2?

Exactly. 73% over the league pitcher + a 45% over the league batter is almost always going to be better than a 111% over the league batter.

I get that Ohtani is old news, giving the MVP to the same guy every year is boring, and he is not a New Yorker but I have a hard time seeing how he isn't the most valuable player again, and probably every year he performs like this. I'm fine with Judge getting it, I would probably vote for him because of the historicity of the season, but is he really more valuable? Almost certainly not.

[campyfan39]

THIS
Would love to see him on a winning team. Great pitching stats on such a poor team. Judge will win but O is the better player.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're a GM. Which of these choices do you make?

1. Replace your average RF with Judge.
2. Replace your average DH with Ohtani, AND replace one of your OK starters with Ohtani.

I could be wrong but wouldn't most choose option 2?

[bdk1976]

Judge will win. If they swapped teams with all else being equal, Ohtani would win.

Playing for the Yankees is like being in an souped-up affirmative action program for awards and recognition. I'm still waiting for any kind of remotely convincing argument as to Phil Rizzuto's HOF qualifications and have been for nearly 30 years now. It's so depressing it's not even a fun discussion to have.

Spare the 'Judge almost won the triple crown" BS. Ted Williams actually did win the triple crown - TWICE - and lost MVP to a Yankee BOTH times, and I don't recall either of those guys being a top notch starting pitcher while also delivering at the plate.

[smokinjoe]

Judge is the MVP, it should actually be his sevcond but was handed to the cheater Altuve. It is the Most VALUABLE Player award, not most talented player award. Judge has for long stretches throughout this season carried the Yankees. The Yankees would not be where they are without him. Ohtani is a great player but the Angels would not be that much of a different team with or without him, so is his presence on the team actually valuable?

WAR is not a stat but an interpretation of stats, and by all measures Judge had the better season. Ohtani had advantage of accumulating counting stats both hitting and pitching. Judge still beat him in the WAR department by quite a bit.

Personally if I were to build a team I would start with Judge before Ohtani. While being able to use one player to fill two positions and have them be above average in both would be of great benefit, it also means that with an injury you have to replace him with two players, also if slumping would double the impact to the team.

MVP = Judge
Athlete of the Year = Ohtani

[packs]

Originally Posted by bdk1976

Judge will win. If they swapped teams with all else being equal, Ohtani would win.

Playing for the Yankees is like being in an souped-up affirmative action program for awards and recognition. I'm still waiting for any kind of remotely convincing argument as to Phil Rizzuto's HOF qualifications and have been for nearly 30 years now. It's so depressing it's not even a fun discussion to have.

Spare the 'Judge almost won the triple crown" BS. Ted Williams actually did win the triple crown - TWICE - and lost MVP to a Yankee BOTH times, and I don't recall either of those guys being a top notch starting pitcher while also delivering at the plate.

The last Yankee to win the MVP was A-rod in 2007. For the last 15 years not one Yankee has won MVP. A-rod also won in 2005 but before that it was Mattingly in 1985.

In the last 36 years a Yankee has won the MVP 2 times and it was the same Yankee.

[D. Bergin]

Good article at The Ringer about the Judge vs. Ohtani debate:

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2022/1...-shohei-ohtani

[steve B]

I saw an interesting and brief article about Ohtani being the first player to have his stats qualify in both hitting and pitching. Enough plate appearances AND enough innings pitched.

That's got to count for something, but I do think Judge will win it. Hopefully the vote is at least close.