The Aaron Judge Effect

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it. He isn't in a home run chase. When driving along an interstate I'm not chasing or racing mile markers, I'm just passing them. Judge is clicking off home run markers.

In 1961, Mantle and Maris were hitting home runs, and the country started looking at the possibility of one or both reaching Ruth's 60. Mantle and Maris had each other for competition. In 1998, McGwire and Sosa, on different teams, did the same. Some baseball analysists and historians thought it revived the interest in baseball that had been hurt by the 1993 strike. Takes at least two to race.

I saw McGwire and Sosa that year. Batting practice had a different quality to it. It reminded me of Church. Quieter, and with a bit of reverence. When either stepped into the batting cage, it got quiet. Players in the dugouts stepped up to see. Fans watched. Ushers and vendors paused. And when a ball was well hit, Ooo's and Aah's replaced the Amen's. And the voiced acclaim extended if the ball was arcing up into the stands.

When I think of 1998, my mind shifts to NASCAR when the haters voice disdain for McGwire and Sosa. As a disgruntled and disagreeable teenager, I saw my first NASCAR race in 1971. I didn't want to go. I became a convert that day, I saw Richard Petty win the Daytona 500. As I slowly developed a bit of interest in the sport, I discovered this stuff about 1970 and the Plymouth Superbird, that car with the high spoiler wing so that it was slightly higher than the roof of the car, getting it up into clean air when the car was at speed. in 1970, Petty won about 18 races with Superbirds. It violated no NASCAR rules of the day. But NASCAR changed the rules. For Superbirds to run in the 1971 season they'd have to reduce horsepower; and the cars weren't selling well at dealerships so the requirement about having the number of cars sold having to equal or exceed 2 x total dealerships was going to be a problem. My point, MLB's steroids / PED ban commenced in 2005. McGwire and Sosa didn't break any rules in 1998, there weren't any. There were rules as Clemens ended his career with the Yankees. And for A-Rod at the end of his (more on A.Rod later). Bond's had his 73 HR year in 2001, before the rules. He only played in 14 games in 2005 (was he pausing to get so he'd pass substance tests?). He hit 54 HRs total in 2006 and 2007, enough to get him past Aaron... So you guys can lump oranges and apples together, but you should at least recognize the differences.

Who was the first baseball player to be suspected of using Performance Enhancing Drugs? May well have been Pud Galvin, who's already in the HOF.

A-Rod. He didn't play in 2014, he was suspended. If he'd played (and some other 'if's like testing clean or not testing positive), then he'd have easily passed 700 and he'd have had a likely shot at passing 714. Reckon MLB and NYY wanted him to pass Babe Ruth? I think not. And that one year suspension did it. Maybe management would have held him out of games and 'rested' him if he'd have gotten close. (Reminds me of Whitey Ford winning 20 games or more only two seasons. What I recall is that management didn't want Whitey winning 20+ games, because they didn't want him using that when bargaining contract salary. Publicly, the Yankees were resting him a bit, not working him to hard, so he'd be fresh for the World Series. There were a bunch of those.) And it reminds me of how 100 years ago and a bit, the Cubs let go of Ed Reulbach, and he was picked up by Brooklyn, then the Federal League Newark team, then the Boston Braves. He ended up with only 182 wins. But the owners held him out (I believe) because he was active in the Baseball Players' Fraternity, he was an officer. Owners didn't like that. I think the owners denied him 25-30 wins. That, with his 2.28 lifetime ERA, his career hits allowed each season was always fewer than his innings pitched... The owners, GRRRRR. They didn't keep him outa the Hall, there was no Hall at the time. But I think he'd be in now if the owners hadn't clamped down on him, and others, for advocating for players' rights. Imagine what they'd have done to Curt Flood.

A lot of the time I find myself hating on something. I guess us haters are gonna hate. Let's put a bit of information sauce on that portion of hate.

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

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[BobC]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

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Also don't forget that back during Maris' time, many ballplayers were known to be taking amphetamines to improve their focus and "twitch" muscle reaction time. And I seem to also remember having heard that the Yankees were one of those teams that supposedly always had a pot or two of coffee on during games back then, oftentimes laced with amphetamines, that some players would drink during games for that additional caffeine/amphetamine rush. Is it possible Maris may have taken part in using this to his advantage as well on some occasions?

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by BobC

Also don't forget that back during Maris' time, many ballplayers were known to be taking amphetamines to improve their focus and "twitch" muscle reaction time. And I seem to also remember having heard that the Yankees were one of those teams that supposedly always had a pot or two of coffee on during games back then, oftentimes laced with amphetamines, that some players would drink during games for that additional caffeine/amphetamine rush. Is it possible Maris may have taken part in using this to his advantage as well on some occasions?

Sure, but then you get into effects--- did the "leaded" coffee have the same benefits as steroids?

What the steroid guys did was next level---it made a great Bonds immortal but to me he is the home run king, and massive cheat.

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[BobC]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Sure, but then you get into effects--- did the "leaded" coffee have the same benefits as steroids?

What the steroid guys did was next level---it made a great Bonds immortal but to me he is the home run king, and massive cheat.

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I don't know, do you? Having additional muscle strength is great, but even if you're stronger, all that strength won't do you a damn bit of good if you can't swing and get the bat on the ball. I've never seen or heard how PEDs like Bonds and others allegedly used improved hand-eye coordination, bat speed, eyesight, or other attributes or abilities that would help them to get the bat on the ball. It is possible for humans to work out like crazy to build muscle mass and strength without illegal steroids and PEDs, very hard, but still possible. Are there similar things humans can do though to increase that focus and "twitch" response time naturally, without the use of heavy doses of caffeine and possibly other chemicals or substances?

With a lot of the short fences today, and the increased velocity that modern pitchers overall seem to throw at, all a smaller guy really has to do is get the bat on the ball solidly to then use the increased energy in that pitch to send it over the fence. Newton's third law of motion/physics, I believe. Strength alone is not the sole, main factor to hitting home runs. You possibly looking at players taking 'roids/PEDs and claiming they took cheating to the next level isn't necessarily wrong, but it might be a little short-sighted in not also recognizing that the use of caffeine/amphetamines is technically using a type of PED as well, and in the end just as wrong.

Throughout the history of baseball, many players have done things on an individual basis to cheat and gain an advantage. To me though, what really constitutes taking cheating to the "next level" is when you have a team/organization working in a joint manner where many people are working together to cheat and take advantage of an opponent. To me that would be the ultimate unpardonable sin, and anyone found involved in such a collusive activity should be immediately banned from MLB for life. And we've had that happen, yet MLB didn't really do a damn thing to anyone involved, did they? And to me that is an even worse offense than what the conspiring cheaters did.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by BobC

I don't know, do you? Having additional muscle strength is great, but even if you're stronger, all that strength won't do you a damn bit of good if you can't swing and get the bat on the ball. I've never seen or heard how PEDs like Bonds and others allegedly used improved hand-eye coordination, bat speed, eyesight, or other attributes or abilities that would help them to get the bat on the ball. It is possible for humans to work out like crazy to build muscle mass and strength without illegal steroids and PEDs, very hard, but still possible. Are there similar things humans can do though to increase that focus and "twitch" response time naturally, without the use of heavy doses of caffeine and possibly other chemicals or substances?



With a lot of the short fences today, and the increased velocity that modern pitchers overall seem to throw at, all a smaller guy really has to do is get the bat on the ball solidly to then use the increased energy in that pitch to send it over the fence. Newton's third law of motion/physics, I believe. Strength alone is not the sole, main factor to hitting home runs. You possibly looking at players taking 'roids/PEDs and claiming they took cheating to the next level isn't necessarily wrong, but it might be a little short-sighted in not also recognizing that the use of caffeine/amphetamines is technically using a type of PED as well, and in the end just as wrong.



Throughout the history of baseball, many players have done things on an individual basis to cheat and gain an advantage. To me though, what really constitutes taking cheating to the "next level" is when you have a team/organization working in a joint manner where many people are working together to cheat and take advantage of an opponent. To me that would be the ultimate unpardonable sin, and anyone found involved in such a collusive activity should be immediately banned from MLB for life. And we've had that happen, yet MLB didn't really do a damn thing to anyone involved, did they? And to me that is an even worse offense than what the conspiring cheaters did.

I agree MLB / Selig should be vilified for allowing this to happen..but Selig is in the hall! Joke.

And yeah you can tell the effects....Mcgwire/ Sosa / Bonds basically doubled their HR output and grew monstrous in size.

They're professional baseball players they can get the bat on the ball lol. They don't need to learn to make contact like Rod Carew. And now instead of flying out to center it sails over the fence.

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[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by BobC

Also don't forget that back during Maris' time, many ballplayers were known to be taking amphetamines to improve their focus and "twitch" muscle reaction time. And I seem to also remember having heard that the Yankees were one of those teams that supposedly always had a pot or two of coffee on during games back then, oftentimes laced with amphetamines, that some players would drink during games for that additional caffeine/amphetamine rush. Is it possible Maris may have taken part in using this to his advantage as well on some occasions?

And let's not forget Ruth, you know the Babe was boozed up or recovering from a night out many an at bat. And that was during Prohibation, so you want to talk about breaking the law.

They all did what they had to do during their time period.

I thought the McGwire Sosa first season head to head was TREMENDOUS!

Who care's if they were juiced, about 3 guys on the planet hit the ball like that and 80/90% were doing it and they couldn't do what Sosa, McGwire and Bonds did.

And I'll say that one season Bonds had was the greatest by a hitter I ever saw. THAT TOO WAS TREMENDOUS!!!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

And let's not forget Ruth, you know the Babe was boozed up or recovering from a night out many an at bat. And that was during Prohibation, so you want to talk about breaking the law.

They all did what they had to do during their time period.

I thought the McGwire Sosa first season head to head was TREMENDOUS!

Who care's if they were juiced, about 3 guys on the planet hit the ball like that and 80/90% were doing it and they couldn't do what Sosa, McGwire and Bonds did.

And I'll say that one season Bonds had was the greatest by a hitter I ever saw. THAT TOO WAS TREMENDOUS!!!

I also thought I had read/heard somewhere that Ruth got caught using a corked/juiced bat once as well.

The fact is that MLB didn't have specific rules in place against the use of PEDs at the time. The home run competition between those two helped boost MLB in the aftermath of the strike that had taken place earlier in the 90's. MLB was eating it up, and taking every advantage they could to make money off what the PED users were doing.

[RCMcKenzie]

Stan, I guess my concern is the Tatis Jr. story. I feel like we are still in the steroid era. Bonds is not a past tense era guy, he's in this era.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Stan, I guess my concern is the Tatis Jr. story. I feel like we are still in the steroid era. Bonds is not a past tense era guy, he's in this era.

No, compare what Tatis took to what Bonds took. And there is not the rampant usage happening today.

So we think.

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[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

No, compare what Tatis took to what Bonds took. And there is not the rampant usage happening today.

So we think.

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I honestly don't know what they do. I'm saying I take the numbers with a grain of salt. Why does Baltimore have a 20 foot wall down the left field line that is 384 feet away?

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

And let's not forget Ruth, you know the Babe was boozed up or recovering from a night out many an at bat. And that was during Prohibation, so you want to talk about breaking the law.



They all did what they had to do during their time period.



I thought the McGwire Sosa first season head to head was TREMENDOUS!



Who care's if they were juiced, about 3 guys on the planet hit the ball like that and 80/90% were doing it and they couldn't do what Sosa, McGwire and Bonds did.



And I'll say that one season Bonds had was the greatest by a hitter I ever saw. THAT TOO WAS TREMENDOUS!!!

Yeah I thought it was all TREMENDOUS too until I learned it was not legit.

Seasons like Judge/Pujols are what MLB needs, not steroid cheats.

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[JimmyC]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Yeah I thought it was all TREMENDOUS too until I learned it was not legit.

Seasons like Judge/Pujols are what MLB needs, not steroid cheats.

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Amen.....

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Yeah I thought it was all TREMENDOUS too until I learned it was not legit.

Seasons like Judge/Pujols are what MLB needs, not steroid cheats.

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Any chance Judge and/or Pujols will be later discovered to have engaged in questionable performance enhancing activities?

It might be a little premature to spike the football and proclaim these two players to be cleaner than the driven snow. They might just have better chemists.

Especially in light of the fact that Pujols is almost definitely not actually 42 years old.

[Snapolit1]

Judge looks like he has the weight of WW3 on his shoulders. I suspect a better manager like Dave Roberts or Buck Showalter would be pulling this guy aside and helping him relax a bit more. One shot after another in the dugout last night and not one smile or a laugh.

Having the Maris family there for days on end. . . . .that's got to build up the pressure.

Not that he was listening to the broadcast last night, but was hard at time to remember a game was actually going on. Seemed like 1000s of shots of him sitting on the bench staring emotionless at the game. And then when the announcers started saying completely ridiculous nonsense about the game some continuing in a break in the monsoon that was hitting the area I went to bed.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by raulus

Any chance Judge and/or Pujols will be later discovered to have engaged in questionable performance enhancing activities?



It might be a little premature to spike the football and proclaim these two players to be cleaner than the driven snow. They might just have better chemists.



Especially in light of the fact that Pujols is almost definitely not actually 42 years old.

If so, they get burned at the stake.

Until then, why speculate? Why stop there?

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[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

If so, they get burned at the stake.

Until then, why speculate? Why stop there?

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Pujols for sure.......Judge probably.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

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In actuality most of the known supplements taken by many of these players were available at the local GNC and most banned but not illegal substances still are. The Androstenedione that was in the legendary locker background for Big Mac and caused the media stink was being taken by myself admittedly along with some much more powerful agents. Andro is still not illegal, but banned for import since 4/11/2004. Certainly, I can't say this was a harmless activity as I have had cancer twice now and I have no idea if they were interrelated. Most of these supplements were not banned in the US until after the home run chase due to the media focus. As to the Balco type drugs, "The Clear" was legal until 2005 as they were new inventions that the laws had to update to reflect these as illegal as well. The 70's-80s base steroids (Decastacks) were very legal and found in any gym or back pages of weightlifting magazines until 2/27/91 when they were made schedule 3. HGH is also still legal as it gets and available to anyone with the money to get it (check for any "anti-aging" clinic near you and I will bet that you can walk right in for HGH shots and Testosterone supplements/shots/or cremes).

I was an industrial mechanic and a private security agent on weekends for extra money in the early 90's. I was constantly injured from one-shouldering 250 lb worm drives and VFDs while working on mezzanines 40 ft in the air. I took them to heal so I could bring in income for my family and worked out daily to avoid being on disability. I took nothing that was permitted in MLB, but nothing I could not buy easily on line or at GNC. The breaking laws argument is a myth, the breaking league rules after those dates was the only "crime" per say.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by JustinD

In actuality most of the known supplements taken by many of these players were available at the local GNC and most banned but not illegal substances still are. The Androstenedione that was in the legendary locker background for Big Mac and caused the media stink was being taken by myself admittedly along with some much more powerful agents. Andro is still not illegal, but banned for import since 4/11/2004. Certainly, I can't say this was a harmless activity as I have had cancer twice now and I have no idea if they were interrelated. Most of these supplements were not banned in the US until after the home run chase due to the media focus. As to the Balco type drugs, "The Clear" was legal until 2005 as they were new inventions that the laws had to update to reflect these as illegal as well. The 70's-80s base steroids (Decastacks) were very legal and found in any gym or back pages of weightlifting magazines until 2/27/91 when they were made schedule 3. HGH is also still legal as it gets and available to anyone with the money to get it (check for any "anti-aging" clinic near you and I will bet that you can walk right in for HGH shots and Testosterone supplements/shots/or cremes).

I was an industrial mechanic and a private security agent on weekends for extra money in the early 90's. I was constantly injured from one-shouldering 250 lb worm drives and VFDs while working on mezzanines 40 ft in the air. I took them to heal so I could bring in income for my family and worked out daily to avoid being on disability. I took nothing that was permitted in MLB, but nothing I could not buy easily on line or at GNC. The breaking laws argument is a myth, the breaking league rules after those dates was the only "crime" per say.

I don't agree its a myth. It is illegal to use steroids or hgh without a rx from a dr.

Not Greg Anderson, who served time because of it. Albeit a slap on the wrist.

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[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

I don't agree its a myth. It is illegal to use steroids or hgh without a rx from a dr.

Not Greg Anderson, who served time because of it. Albeit a slap on the wrist.

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I was stating during those dates.

However, it is as difficult to get now as getting a subscription for Viagra over the computer.

HGH and steroids are just hidden under the anti-aging label now. I see you are in FL, here is an example of an "anti-aging" center. These have "doctors", but much as the same as states with legalized pot to get a card.

https://floridaantiagingcenter.com/men/

And Greg Anderson got a whole 90 days because it was for conspiracy to distribute and money laundering, not possession.

You are deferring current laws to the past, so I just wanted to show the juxtaposition just like salad bowls of Greenies in 60's/70's locker rooms.

Each and every generation has pushed the envelope. The amphetamines' were legal, hell JFK was fully drugged up on speed everyday. I have never seen proof nor does it exist scientifically that steroids' increase hand eye coordination. And as you said any MLB player can make contact with the ball...well the averages have a lot of argument for that. Can they impact distance? Well I could see that for sure.

As to the greenies, Doc Ellis and many other players have stated that they slowed the game and made hitting much easier. To the point that any ADHD meds which are a similar issue are banned to kingdom come. I just really think no great period is gleaming with honesty. A player focused on his career will likely do anything on the earth to prolong or better it, it's competitiveness... and that has caused numerous problems for history.