Roger Clemens - Where does he rank?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Something tells me if David Ortiz had been a surly bastard, we'd be looking at a very different outcome. And how sure are we Bagwell and Piazza didn't use? I-rod?

Yes. I’m fine with punishing them for breaking the rule or forgiving it and letting them in, but this current state where Ortiz is forgiven and his use memory holed while Clemens is cancelled and Bonds got straight blackballed out of baseball is absurd.

[steve B]

This whole thread is a bit surprising, mostly because I haven't really considered Clemens to be anywhere near the top 5.

I saw him pitch, and saw Pedro pitch, and Pedro was better. Randy Johnson I didn't see pitch but also thought was better.
And old guy Nolan Ryan - who had figured out pitching over just throwing 100... and seemed to pretty regularly pitch a no hitter.

Probably a few others, but not consistently.
Maddux and Glavine - Good reliable guys with good control on teams that were both good and knew how to win. But removed from the Braves? Not so sure. At least you knew they wouldn't beat themselves with walks and lots of bad pitches.

[Seven]

Pound for pound I think he was one of the greatest pitchers the game has ever seen. Few can argue the dominance of his early years with the Red Sox, and then later on with the Blue Jays. He wasn't too shabby for the Yankees and Astros either. His Longevity was very impressive.

PED's are practically a nonfactor in my book. Too Many players have taken them, and few have achieved the greatness of someone like Bonds or Clemens. I also think you can't draw a line in the sand, and say "well some cheating is ok, others aren't"

Are we going to ignore the bowls of Greenies in the clubhouses? Aaron, Mays and Mantle all admitted to trying it at least once. In many peoples opinions, even once should disqualify someones chances. Babe Ruth took sheep testosterone, is that alright? Or what about Koufax abusing painkillers to pitch his last few seasons? Is that okay?

The knock against taking PED's is that it's wrong, and reflects poorly on a persons character. But if you bring up a players character, we enter the territory where there was a smattering of players who were racists, wife beaters, degenerate gamblers, etc. Clemens was a great pitcher, one of the best I've ever seen.

[drcy]

If there's nothing wrong or cheating about it, then why doe Clemens (and others) deny it?

Obviously, Clemens (and others) disagree with you, or they'd say "Yes, I took PEDs. So what?"

Originally Posted by Seven

Pound for pound I think he was one of the greatest pitchers the game has ever seen. Few can argue the dominance of his early years with the Red Sox, and then later on with the Blue Jays. He wasn't too shabby for the Yankees and Astros either. His Longevity was very impressive.

PED's are practically a nonfactor in my book. Too Many players have taken them, and few have achieved the greatness of someone like Bonds or Clemens. I also think you can't draw a line in the sand, and say "well some cheating is ok, others aren't"

Are we going to ignore the bowls of Greenies in the clubhouses? Aaron, Mays and Mantle all admitted to trying it at least once. In many peoples opinions, even once should disqualify someones chances. Babe Ruth took sheep testosterone, is that alright? Or what about Koufax abusing painkillers to pitch his last few seasons? Is that okay?

The knock against taking PED's is that it's wrong, and reflects poorly on a persons character. But if you bring up a players character, we enter the territory where there was a smattering of players who were racists, wife beaters, degenerate gamblers, etc. Clemens was a great pitcher, one of the best I've ever seen.

[G1911]

I don’t think the knock on PED’s is that they reflect poorly on character. It’s that they give a huge performance advantage and allowed a generation to put up video game statistics, unlike greenies, energy drinks or Babe Ruth’s hot dogs.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes. I’m fine with punishing them for breaking the rule or forgiving it and letting them in, but this current state where Ortiz is forgiven and his use memory holed while Clemens is cancelled and Bonds got straight blackballed out of baseball is absurd.

I agree with this 100%.