Article about Collecting and Fraud in the Hobby

[parkplace33]

Sadly, fraud is rampant because a lot of collectors only care about the grade of the card/item, not how it got the grade. They don't want backstories, they don't want to know, they just want a high grade.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Sadly, fraud is rampant because a lot of collectors only care about the grade of the card/item, not how it got the grade. They don't want backstories, they don't want to know, they just want a high grade.

Bottom Line 99% of the hobby doesn’t give a crap what was done to the card as long as it’s in a holder with number grade. It’s just the way it is. Right or Wrong criminal or not. Idk it’s not a crime to alter cards. I think not disclosing “restoration” is wrong but criminal. it’s super hard to prove….The juice to me is not worth the squeeze.
PWCC has been exposed by the court of public opinion and removed from eBay, that’s enough for me. I just avoid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Bottom Line 99% of the hobby doesn’t give a crap what was done to the card as long as it’s in a holder with number grade. It’s just the way it is. Right or Wrong criminal or not. Idk it’s not a crime to alter cards. I think not disclosing “restoration” is wrong but criminal. it’s super hard to prove….The juice to me is not worth the squeeze.
PWCC has been exposed by the court of public opinion and removed from eBay, that’s enough for me. I just avoid.

If you're right how remarkable, given that the very premise on which PSA was founded was the hobby needed an objective firm to identify altered cards. Read the early ads.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you're right how remarkable, given that the very premise on which PSA was founded was the hobby needed an objective firm to identify altered cards. Read the early ads.

Never mistake a company’s ads for their actual goal . The first big card they graded was altered, and as I recall the evidence, they knew it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Never mistake a company’s ads for their actual goal . The first big card they graded was altered, and as I recall the evidence, they knew it.

David Hall said otherwise. Bill Hughes was quoted by Mike O'Keefe as sort of acknowledging it if memory serves, but as I understand it he disputes that.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Bottom Line 99% of the hobby doesn’t give a crap what was done to the card as long as it’s in a holder with number grade. It’s just the way it is. Right or Wrong criminal or not. Idk it’s not a crime to alter cards. I think not disclosing “restoration” is wrong but criminal. it’s super hard to prove….The juice to me is not worth the squeeze.
PWCC has been exposed by the court of public opinion and removed from eBay, that’s enough for me. I just avoid.

Sadly Johnny, your 99% figure is probably not that far off. I would guess (hopefully) that more than 1% of the people in the hobby cared about this issue, but probably not much more. And you're absolutely right that it may not always be so easy to prove that someone had doctored a card, and defrauded someone by not disclosing the alteration/restoration. When you look at the hobby and how the reliance and faith that is put in the major TPG's graded cards seems to override everything else, those TPG grading standards are accepted as the final word by a vast majority in our hobby. And to an awful lot of people, I feel the thinking might be that if the alteration/restoration is so good the top TPG's can't even detect it, then the card is good as is, and it is only the ultra-nerdy purists, like many of us here on Net54, that really give a rat's ass about this.

It can be easily pointed out how restoration (and even some alteration) being done to items is completely accepted in other collectible circles, like fine art. Cleaning of paintings is considered universally acceptable in conserving and enhancing the look, and maybe even more importantly the value, of works of art. Meanwhile, erasing or removing writing or glue residue on cards, or cleaning stains off them, will get different answers and levels of acceptability from different card collectors. And if you start putting such conflicting and differing views in front of a jury, I can see them having at least some reasonable doubts as to there being criminal fraud having occurred when someone sells a card that was altered/restored, and then passed the inspection of one of the major, accepted TPGs when it was graded.

Look at another example. If you sell a house, and don't disclose a significant problem or issue, the buyer could possibly come back at you. But what if you sold the house "as is", with no guarantees given or implied? Or, alternatively, you went ahead and paid for an inspection by a qualified, reputable home inspection company that found and opined there were no major problems or issues with the house, and you provided the buyer a copy of that inspection report, which they then relied upon, prior to them buying the house. I know that the sale of a house doesn't likely get someone involved with mail/wire fraud, like selling and then sending a card through the mail does, but I think the use of an inspection company can go a long way in protecting a seller should some issues later come up. And wouldn't there be some correlation between a TPG opining on a card's condition, and a home inspection company opining on a house's condition?

The real problem is the TPGs cannot accurately and consistently detect ALL of the restorations and alterations that are being done to cards, yet pretty much a vast majority of the hobby community accepts the TPG opinions as the final word over anyone else's. Heck, wasn't that the very reason TPGs came about, because you supposedly couldn't trust what dealers and sellers told you are a card's condition? So which is it, the TPGs are basically right and their opinions stand, or they aren't basically right and none of their opinions should stand? And then throw that at a jury of people who likely couldn't care less about card collecting. Unless the FBI can somehow tie any TPGs, sellers, and auction houses that may be involved in their investigation into knowingly and collusively working with card doctors to intentionally defraud people, it may be more difficult to convict just a card doctor alone of fraud than many may think. Think about it, if altering/restoring a card gets it a higher TPG grade, and someone will then spend more for it, how are they defrauded if they turn around and can also sell it at a higher price based on that altered/restored grade to someone else? THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED AND 100% AGREED UPON LIST OR LINE AS TO WHAT IS OR IS NOT CONSIDERED AS AN ALLOWABLE ALERATION OR RESTORATION TO A CARD!

[BobC]

And a follow-up question(s) to my last post.

When submitting cards to a TPG for grading, do they specifically ask the submitter if they are aware of any cards being submitted having been altered and/or restored?

And to take it to the next step, do any auction houses or sellers ever ask people consigning graded cards to them to sell if to their knowledge any of the graded cards being consigned are incorrectly graded and have actually been altered and/or restored?

I'm going to guess the answer to both questions is likely NO!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

And a follow-up question(s) to my last post.

When submitting cards to a TPG for grading, do they specifically ask the submitter if they are aware of any cards being submitted having been altered and/or restored?

And to take it to the next step, do any auction houses or sellers ever ask people consigning graded cards to them to sell if to their knowledge any of the graded cards being consigned are incorrectly graded and have actually been altered and/or restored?

I'm going to guess the answer to both questions is likely NO!

I think the PSA submission form requires the seller to state the cards are not altered.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think the PSA submission form requires the seller to state the cards are not altered.

Then that is great, and good to know. Have never submitted anything to PSA, and only once to SGC, to verify authenticity. And I don't recall SGC having a similar question regarding alterations, at least not at the time I made that one submission.

Still though, if a card doctor is smart, wouldn't they likely try then to make their submissions through an innocent third-party, like an AH or other seller they consigned a card to, to submit for grading and then sell for them? That was why I asked the second question in my last post. Ignorance can be bliss for some after all maybe?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Then that is great, and good to know. Have never submitted anything to PSA, and only once to SGC, to verify authenticity. And I don't recall SGC having a similar question regarding alterations, at least not at the time I made that one submission.

Still though, if a card doctor is smart, wouldn't they likely try then to make their submissions through an innocent third-party, like an AH or other seller they consigned a card to, to submit for grading and then sell for them? That was why I asked the second question in my last post. Ignorance can be bliss for some after all maybe?

Given the many millions many card doctors have earned, they seem smart enough. As I like to say, there is in my opinion an unholy alliance among card doctors, TPGs, and some AHs.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think the PSA submission form requires the seller to state the cards are not altered.

That sort of negates a major point of grading and authentication doesn't it?
If I know I'm probably not sending it in, if I have no clue, that's what I'd pay an expert for.

[G1911]

That PWCC’s trimming and fraud ring did NOT exist is the conspiracy theory, the one that flies in the face of mountains of evidence. Finally we get to the actual point, pretending PWCC is innocent and the thousands of provably trimmed cards from his buddy Gary and others, many of which Brent himself bought before trimming, are a frame up.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by steve B

That sort of negates a major point of grading and authentication doesn't it?
If I know I'm probably not sending it in, if I have no clue, that's what I'd pay an expert for.

Authentication is part of it...however with the proliferation of altered cards it seems like it is all a TPG is supposed to address however they other part of the process is assigning the grade.

Originally Posted by G1911

That PWCC’s trimming and fraud ring did NOT exist is the conspiracy theory, the one that flies in the face of mountains of evidence. Finally we get to the actual point, pretending PWCC is innocent and the thousands of provably trimmed cards from his buddy Gary and others, many of which Brent himself bought before trimming, are a frame up.

Travis has made it known that some of his positions are not popular. I respect that. Obviously he benefits from the relationship with PWCC, which is his choice and I am certainly not condemning him for it, but it is going out there when you call 3 years of uncovering thousands of obviously altered cards by a few guys by means of hunting and pecking. What Brent has been accused of could not be further from a conspiracy.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by steve B

That sort of negates a major point of grading and authentication doesn't it?
If I know I'm probably not sending it in, if I have no clue, that's what I'd pay an expert for.

That type of question probably has little to do in terms of actual grading, and is more likely there as a type of CYA protection for the TPG asking it. Think about it, if the FBI decides to investigate a TPG for the possibility of their acting in collusion with others to potentially defraud the public, they (the TPG) can simply point the FBI, or whomever may be investigating, to that question and the submitter's response. While certainly not 100% conclusive, it does document that the supposed party the TPG may have been thought to possibly be colluding with was specifically asked, and affirmatively denied, knowingly giving altered or doctored items to that TPG to grade. It helps to substantiate a TPG's position that they are not knowingly working with anyone to intentionally defraud the public.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by BobC

Sadly Johnny, your 99% figure is probably not that far off. I would guess (hopefully) that more than 1% of the people in the hobby cared about this issue, but probably not much more. And you're absolutely right that it may not always be so easy to prove that someone had doctored a card, and defrauded someone by not disclosing the alteration/restoration. When you look at the hobby and how the reliance and faith that is put in the major TPG's graded cards seems to override everything else, those TPG grading standards are accepted as the final word by a vast majority in our hobby. And to an awful lot of people, I feel the thinking might be that if the alteration/restoration is so good the top TPG's can't even detect it, then the card is good as is, and it is only the ultra-nerdy purists, like many of us here on Net54, that really give a rat's ass about this.

It can be easily pointed out how restoration (and even some alteration) being done to items is completely accepted in other collectible circles, like fine art. Cleaning of paintings is considered universally acceptable in conserving and enhancing the look, and maybe even more importantly the value, of works of art. Meanwhile, erasing or removing writing or glue residue on cards, or cleaning stains off them, will get different answers and levels of acceptability from different card collectors. And if you start putting such conflicting and differing views in front of a jury, I can see them having at least some reasonable doubts as to there being criminal fraud having occurred when someone sells a card that was altered/restored, and then passed the inspection of one of the major, accepted TPGs when it was graded.

Look at another example. If you sell a house, and don't disclose a significant problem or issue, the buyer could possibly come back at you. But what if you sold the house "as is", with no guarantees given or implied? Or, alternatively, you went ahead and paid for an inspection by a qualified, reputable home inspection company that found and opined there were no major problems or issues with the house, and you provided the buyer a copy of that inspection report, which they then relied upon, prior to them buying the house. I know that the sale of a house doesn't likely get someone involved with mail/wire fraud, like selling and then sending a card through the mail does, but I think the use of an inspection company can go a long way in protecting a seller should some issues later come up. And wouldn't there be some correlation between a TPG opining on a card's condition, and a home inspection company opining on a house's condition?

The real problem is the TPGs cannot accurately and consistently detect ALL of the restorations and alterations that are being done to cards, yet pretty much a vast majority of the hobby community accepts the TPG opinions as the final word over anyone else's. Heck, wasn't that the very reason TPGs came about, because you supposedly couldn't trust what dealers and sellers told you are a card's condition? So which is it, the TPGs are basically right and their opinions stand, or they aren't basically right and none of their opinions should stand? And then throw that at a jury of people who likely couldn't care less about card collecting. Unless the FBI can somehow tie any TPGs, sellers, and auction houses that may be involved in their investigation into knowingly and collusively working with card doctors to intentionally defraud people, it may be more difficult to convict just a card doctor alone of fraud than many may think. Think about it, if altering/restoring a card gets it a higher TPG grade, and someone will then spend more for it, how are they defrauded if they turn around and can also sell it at a higher price based on that altered/restored grade to someone else? THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED AND 100% AGREED UPON LIST OR LINE AS TO WHAT IS OR IS NOT CONSIDERED AS AN ALLOWABLE ALERATION OR RESTORATION TO A CARD!

I agree Bob, very well said :-). On the positive side, I do feel that PSA and SGC have become much better at detecting altered cards.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I agree Bob, very well said :-). On the positive side, I do feel that PSA and SGC have become much better at detecting altered cards.

But apparently not good enough to catch ALL the stellar alteration and restoration work some of these card doctors can perform.

People talked about AI eventually being the answer, and lauded PSA for acquiring Genamint if I remember correctly, as a possible beginning to this improved alteration detection movement. But as then later discussed on here, that AI may not work anywhere near as well as many had hoped, and was likely years away from maybe ever having any real impact on the issue, whatsoever. What I do seem to remember though was the potential use of Genamint type/level of technology in the taking of high-resolution scans of cards, which could then detect and show a unique print/ink pattern of each card so you could definitively always identify one card from another, just like a fingerprint is unique for each human. That way if a car doctor altered/restored a card that had been previously scanned using this kind of technology, no matter how different that card may look after the alteration/restoration, you can forever show it was the same card. What the BODA/Blowout guys did/are doing is great, but I still don't think all their matches would garner 100% certainty like this technology could provide.

The problem though with detecting alterations and restorations with such technology is you'd have to have a scan of the unaltered/unrestored card image to compare to first. And for all the cards that have already been altered/restored, it is too late. And even in some instances where say one TPG had already graded and did the high-resolution scan of a card, what would stop a card doctor from buying the one TPG's graded card, breaking it out of the holder to alter/restore, and then submit it to a different TPG for grading and encapsulation? Or does anyone really think the TPGs would actually agree voluntarily to start sharing such information/images among themselves? I sure as heck don't see that happening anytime soon, if ever.

Well, here's a somewhat radical idea that could possibly resolve the issue. Maybe instead of fighting and arguing against alterations and restorations, have the hobby and industry embrace them. And by that I mean realize that many in the hobby have no problems or issues owning altered or restored cards, and may in fact prefer to have a much better looking altered/restored card than what it looked like in its original state. So why not recognize them as such and give them their own category? Instead of a TPG just listing an altered/restored card as "A" for authentic, and that is it, the TPG can recognize that not all alterations/restorations are the same. What if they noted the alteration/restoration done on the card, but then still gave the card a numerical grade based on how it looks, without factoring in the alteration/restoration itself. I guess maybe a little like how some TPGs would list and rate qualifiers on cards they graded. That way someone who doesn't get caught up in alterations/restorations can go out and find and pay for that 6 or 7 grade card they were looking for, and the purists can stick to only buying the unaltered/unrestored cards they prefer. For one thing, it could create new business for TPGs. Think of all the "A", altered and restored cards that are out there that their owners would send in for numerical grades.

And at the end of the day, let the market decide what different grades of restored/altered cards are worth. Just a thought and idea though.