Article about Collecting and Fraud in the Hobby

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think the PSA submission form requires the seller to state the cards are not altered.

Then that is great, and good to know. Have never submitted anything to PSA, and only once to SGC, to verify authenticity. And I don't recall SGC having a similar question regarding alterations, at least not at the time I made that one submission.

Still though, if a card doctor is smart, wouldn't they likely try then to make their submissions through an innocent third-party, like an AH or other seller they consigned a card to, to submit for grading and then sell for them? That was why I asked the second question in my last post. Ignorance can be bliss for some after all maybe?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Then that is great, and good to know. Have never submitted anything to PSA, and only once to SGC, to verify authenticity. And I don't recall SGC having a similar question regarding alterations, at least not at the time I made that one submission.

Still though, if a card doctor is smart, wouldn't they likely try then to make their submissions through an innocent third-party, like an AH or other seller they consigned a card to, to submit for grading and then sell for them? That was why I asked the second question in my last post. Ignorance can be bliss for some after all maybe?

Given the many millions many card doctors have earned, they seem smart enough. As I like to say, there is in my opinion an unholy alliance among card doctors, TPGs, and some AHs.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Given the many millions many card doctors have earned, they seem smart enough. As I like to say, there is in my opinion an unholy alliance among card doctors, TPGs, and some AHs.

Don't disagree in regard to that possibility at all. And exactly why I speculated a major goal of the FBI is to prove such collusion. But as some of my posed questions relate to all this, I wonder if there isn't a sort of unwritten "Don't ask - Don't tell" philosophy that permeates those in the hobby that are possibly involved. And since they all stand to make money from such business, they ask few or no questions to always maintain what for each of them then is a comfortable level of plausible deniability. And also why in my last post I proposed the possible idea of accepting alterations/restorations as an accepted part of the hobby after all. Prohibition didn't stop alcohol production and consumption, so they eventually re-legalized it, and put it under better monitoring and control. Maybe something along the same lines will help with alterations and restorations, whereby accepting them won't make the card doctors and others so prone to hide them. Who knows, what do we have to lose by trying something new at least?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Don't disagree in regard to that possibility at all. And exactly why I speculated a major goal of the FBI is to prove such collusion. But as some of my posed questions relate to all this, I wonder if there isn't a sort of unwritten "Don't ask - Don't tell" philosophy that permeates those in the hobby that are possibly involved. And since they all stand to make money from such business, they ask few or no questions to always maintain what for each of them then is a comfortable level of plausible deniability. And also why in my last post I proposed the possible idea of accepting alterations/restorations as an accepted part of the hobby after all. Prohibition didn't stop alcohol production and consumption, so they eventually re-legalized it, and put it under better monitoring and control. Maybe something along the same lines will help with alterations and restorations, whereby accepting them won't make the card doctors and others so prone to hide them. Who knows, what do we have to lose by trying something new at least?

An altered card is going to sell for a fraction of an unaltered card. We already know that from all the "Authentics" out there. Alteration is only lucrative if combined with deception.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

An altered card is going to sell for a fraction of an unaltered card. We already know that from all the "Authentics" out there. Alteration is only lucrative if combined with deception.

Restoration is technically alteration though, correct? So what if some paper conservator was able to rebuild a card's corners and turn it into what would now be considered a high grade version of that card? Why not just call it what it is, a restored card, but then also give it the grade it deserves based on the card's merits and presentation, along with giving credit to the conservator for the work they performed?

And maybe in regard to value, doesn't a card graded 7(MC) often (or at least potentially) sell for more than a straight 5 or 6 grade? You never know for certain what the market will do and how it will react until you actually try something new. Maybe YOU would not pay any more if an altered/restored card were marked as such, and then given a numeric grade, but then YOU are also not representative of and speaking for everyone else in the hobby. Who really knows? Look at all the threads just recently on here talking about low grade cards that appear and present well, and oftentimes go for more than you'd expect given their technical grades. I know I once picked up a gorgeous E95 Wagner that was graded "A" due to slight trimming. It looks deserving of a 6, maybe even a 7 grade, if not for the trimming. My alternative for budget purposes may have been to pick up a really crappy looking 1 or 1.5 grade, if I could have even come across one. Am very happy with my trimmed/altered card in this case, and would probably value it much higher than a crappy looking 1 or 1.5 for sure.

Or what about cards that were put in screw down holders and are slightly, but unintentionally, flattened by the pressure. They may not have been altered on purpose, but still get the technical hit from TPGs. Some of them can be downright beautiful, and you can't really discern there's any difference from a non-squashed card when looking at it. I'd likely be okay and happy to pay more for that card, altered by pressing it too hard in a screw down holder, than I would for a crappy looking, but unaltered, version of it in say a 1, 2, or maybe even 3 grade.

Just a few examples, and certainly not covering all potential options and variations that can occur or happen in the alteration/restoration of cards, but I'm guessing I would be far from alone in my thinking and valuations in at least some of these instances.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To each his own, but I don't want restored cards, don't care how skillfully restored. Originality is what matters, and cards are appropriately valued and differentiated according to how well they survived the rigors of time. This isn't art where each work is one of a kind.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To each his own, but I don't want restored cards, don't care how skillfully restored. Originality is what matters, and cards are appropriately valued and differentiated according to how well they survived the rigors of time. This isn't art where each work is one of a kind.

Do not disagree at all, and to each his own. Collect and buy the card, not the holder.

But heck, look at people posting right now in the other thread on the front page that Leon started, "I Don't Know About Ya'll (lower grades)". There are other members talking about embracing and starting to accept and go for some altered/restored cards. You hadn't posted in that thread, so I don't know if you've seen and read through it. If you do, you'll clearly see that not everyone follows your thinking and collecting standards. And that is perfectly fine, collect what and how you like, to each his own.

Of course, the type of thinking I'm talking about is maybe more appropriate for older, vintage and pre-war type cards where there may not be that many examples of some cards to begin with, and they aren't all usually in nicer shape, like you'd expect with more modern cards. The age, wear, and other faults more commonly find on older vintage cards also makes them much more likely to benefit from restorations/alterations that can be made to them. But I'm most definitely of the opinion that alterations or restorations should always be disclosed. I'm too much of an idealist on stuff like this, but you have to have some hopes/dreams in life, right?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To each his own, but I don't want restored cards, don't care how skillfully restored. Originality is what matters, and cards are appropriately valued and differentiated according to how well they survived the rigors of time. This isn't art where each work is one of a kind.

I would revise your statement to say that cards are valued (appropriately or not) and differentiated according to how people perceive how well they survived the rigors of time.

The vast majority of high grade vintage cards have all been altered or restored. Ken Kendrick's collection is a prime example. So many of those cards have been trimmed. Even Nat Turner's vintage cards too. So many of those are alerted as well. I'm talking about obvious alterations too, not the ones that are difficult to tell. If they want to pay huge sums for cards to have razor sharp corners from issues that never had corners like that off the press, then the market will deliver. It always does.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

An altered card is going to sell for a fraction of an unaltered card. We already know that from all the "Authentics" out there. Alteration is only lucrative if combined with deception.

I think it would depend entirely on what that alteration is and what the eye appeal is. If you put a 52 Mantle in a PSA "Authentic Altered" slab with no other info, then sure, it sells for significantly less. But if PSA revised their grading standards to put that same Mantle in a PSA A8 holder with a note about screwdown damage being the reason and that it otherwise looks like a NM-MT 8, then I'd wager good money that it would sell for a significant premium over the current AA holder.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think it would depend entirely on what that alteration is and what the eye appeal is. If you put a 52 Mantle in a PSA "Authentic Altered" slab with no other info, then sure, it sells for significantly less. But if PSA revised their grading standards to put that same Mantle in a PSA A8 holder with a note about screwdown damage being the reason and that it otherwise looks like a NM-MT 8, then I'd wager good money that it would sell for a significant premium over the current AA holder.

I would agree with this.