Article about Collecting and Fraud in the Hobby

[Snowman]

I don't understand the argument that selling a doctored card can be considered mail fraud if the underlying act of doctoring a card is not itself a crime.

People collect sneakers. Some pay big bucks for them too. You can clean up an old pair of Jordans and surely get more money for them than you could if you sold them grungy. Surely, there are sneaker "purists" who would prefer their sneakers to have never been "tampered" with, but that doesn't mean they get to set the rules for everyone on what is and isn't allowed. It's not a crime to clean and sell sneakers. It's not a crime to clean and sell comics. Surely, it's not a crime to clean and sell baseball cards regardless of how much profit someone makes in the process.

I've said this multiple times before, but I maintain that someone could openly admit to altering cards in front of a jury (even without having representation) and they would never be convicted of a crime under any and every circumstance imaginable.

The arguments for criminalizing this sort of behavior just comes across to me as wishful thinking on the part of those who would like to impose their views on others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't understand the argument that selling a doctored card can be considered mail fraud if the underlying act of doctoring a card is not itself a crime.

People collect sneakers. Some pay big bucks for them too. You can clean up an old pair of Jordans and surely get more money for them than you could if you sold them grungy. Surely, there are sneaker "purists" who would prefer their sneakers to have never been "tampered" with, but that doesn't mean they get to set the rules for everyone on what is and isn't allowed. It's not a crime to clean and sell sneakers. It's not a crime to clean and sell comics. Surely, it's not a crime to clean and sell baseball cards regardless of how much profit someone makes in the process.

I've said this multiple times before, but I maintain that someone could openly admit to altering cards in front of a jury (even without having representation) and they would never be convicted of a crime under any and every circumstance imaginable.

The arguments for criminalizing this sort of behavior just comes across to me as wishful thinking on the part of those who would like to impose their views on others.

Assuming you are talking broadly about altering cards and not just cleaning which some don't view as alteration at all, are you suggesting I don't know this area of the law and you do? Are you suggesting Brent's elite criminal defense lawyer who along with me explained this at length in the day and later advised Brent to cooperate doesn't know the law but you do? Are you suggesting SA Brusokas has spent years investigating activity that was perfectly legal? Come on Travis, stop it.

As to your question, which is fair and you should have stopped there, you need to understand the nature of mail and wire fraud. just altering the card hasn't yet defrauded anyone through the wires or mail. It only becomes a crime when those elements are met, in other words when there's been a scheme carried out through the wires or mail by means of a material misrepresentation or non-disclosure. In other words, it's not the sale per se of the altered card that's the problem, it's the non -disclosure of the fact that it's altered. If I trim a card, get it past the graders, and sell it with full disclosure, there's no fraud. So your logic -- if it isn't illegal to alter it, it can't be illegal to sell it -- misunderstands the nature of mail and wire fraud. Oh, and in your free time read the Mastro indictment and the part about the Wagner. The part that allegedly was mail fraud was not the trimming but the concealment.

Now if your REAL point is not that it couldn't be a crime, but that it isn't something that SHOULD be prosecuted, that would be a different point and discussion.

[Johnny630]

We all know to avoid PWCC so we are good 😊

[Exhibitman]

[parkplace33]

Sadly, fraud is rampant because a lot of collectors only care about the grade of the card/item, not how it got the grade. They don't want backstories, they don't want to know, they just want a high grade.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Sadly, fraud is rampant because a lot of collectors only care about the grade of the card/item, not how it got the grade. They don't want backstories, they don't want to know, they just want a high grade.

Bottom Line 99% of the hobby doesn’t give a crap what was done to the card as long as it’s in a holder with number grade. It’s just the way it is. Right or Wrong criminal or not. Idk it’s not a crime to alter cards. I think not disclosing “restoration” is wrong but criminal. it’s super hard to prove….The juice to me is not worth the squeeze.
PWCC has been exposed by the court of public opinion and removed from eBay, that’s enough for me. I just avoid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Bottom Line 99% of the hobby doesn’t give a crap what was done to the card as long as it’s in a holder with number grade. It’s just the way it is. Right or Wrong criminal or not. Idk it’s not a crime to alter cards. I think not disclosing “restoration” is wrong but criminal. it’s super hard to prove….The juice to me is not worth the squeeze.
PWCC has been exposed by the court of public opinion and removed from eBay, that’s enough for me. I just avoid.

If you're right how remarkable, given that the very premise on which PSA was founded was the hobby needed an objective firm to identify altered cards. Read the early ads.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Bottom Line 99% of the hobby doesn’t give a crap what was done to the card as long as it’s in a holder with number grade. It’s just the way it is. Right or Wrong criminal or not. Idk it’s not a crime to alter cards. I think not disclosing “restoration” is wrong but criminal. it’s super hard to prove….The juice to me is not worth the squeeze.
PWCC has been exposed by the court of public opinion and removed from eBay, that’s enough for me. I just avoid.

Sadly Johnny, your 99% figure is probably not that far off. I would guess (hopefully) that more than 1% of the people in the hobby cared about this issue, but probably not much more. And you're absolutely right that it may not always be so easy to prove that someone had doctored a card, and defrauded someone by not disclosing the alteration/restoration. When you look at the hobby and how the reliance and faith that is put in the major TPG's graded cards seems to override everything else, those TPG grading standards are accepted as the final word by a vast majority in our hobby. And to an awful lot of people, I feel the thinking might be that if the alteration/restoration is so good the top TPG's can't even detect it, then the card is good as is, and it is only the ultra-nerdy purists, like many of us here on Net54, that really give a rat's ass about this.

It can be easily pointed out how restoration (and even some alteration) being done to items is completely accepted in other collectible circles, like fine art. Cleaning of paintings is considered universally acceptable in conserving and enhancing the look, and maybe even more importantly the value, of works of art. Meanwhile, erasing or removing writing or glue residue on cards, or cleaning stains off them, will get different answers and levels of acceptability from different card collectors. And if you start putting such conflicting and differing views in front of a jury, I can see them having at least some reasonable doubts as to there being criminal fraud having occurred when someone sells a card that was altered/restored, and then passed the inspection of one of the major, accepted TPGs when it was graded.

Look at another example. If you sell a house, and don't disclose a significant problem or issue, the buyer could possibly come back at you. But what if you sold the house "as is", with no guarantees given or implied? Or, alternatively, you went ahead and paid for an inspection by a qualified, reputable home inspection company that found and opined there were no major problems or issues with the house, and you provided the buyer a copy of that inspection report, which they then relied upon, prior to them buying the house. I know that the sale of a house doesn't likely get someone involved with mail/wire fraud, like selling and then sending a card through the mail does, but I think the use of an inspection company can go a long way in protecting a seller should some issues later come up. And wouldn't there be some correlation between a TPG opining on a card's condition, and a home inspection company opining on a house's condition?

The real problem is the TPGs cannot accurately and consistently detect ALL of the restorations and alterations that are being done to cards, yet pretty much a vast majority of the hobby community accepts the TPG opinions as the final word over anyone else's. Heck, wasn't that the very reason TPGs came about, because you supposedly couldn't trust what dealers and sellers told you are a card's condition? So which is it, the TPGs are basically right and their opinions stand, or they aren't basically right and none of their opinions should stand? And then throw that at a jury of people who likely couldn't care less about card collecting. Unless the FBI can somehow tie any TPGs, sellers, and auction houses that may be involved in their investigation into knowingly and collusively working with card doctors to intentionally defraud people, it may be more difficult to convict just a card doctor alone of fraud than many may think. Think about it, if altering/restoring a card gets it a higher TPG grade, and someone will then spend more for it, how are they defrauded if they turn around and can also sell it at a higher price based on that altered/restored grade to someone else? THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED AND 100% AGREED UPON LIST OR LINE AS TO WHAT IS OR IS NOT CONSIDERED AS AN ALLOWABLE ALERATION OR RESTORATION TO A CARD!