So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You and I have had this discussion before of course, but....

WAR
Aaron 143
Clemente 94.8

HR
Aaron 755
Clemente 240

SLG

Aaron .555
Clemente .475

OPS
Aaron .928
Clemente .834

To me there is no sound argument to take Clemente over Aaron, and I do understand the Forbes Field, Atlanta stadium, and premature career ending points, they might IMO make the gap a little closer but not that much.

This shouldn’t even need to be said. One may like Clemente more, but to assert he is better is so far off from reality that it’s just absurd. The fanboys in this thread…

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- a couple points:

1) I happen to believe Hank Aaron is the most devastating offensive force
in the past 70ish years of baseball. My 3 favorite players are Roberto,
Hank, and Rod Carew.

2) Your memory is selective (is it alright to say that since you are infallible?
Did I cross some line that challenges your deity-like status? Gosh, I hope
not). I have provided data and other commenters have provided data,
making repetition of it unnecessary. The data points ARE there, for both
players. Some choose Roberto and others choose Al. YOU went off the
reservation with the "overrated" talk. It was off topic, unnecessary, and
provocative- and wrong. I called you on it, which makes you angry
because you've already established that you are never wrong. You are
the nicest guy in the world so long as you make the rules and refuse to
be challenged, right?

3) Much earlier in this thread, you made some numbnuts remark about
not acknowledging outside "player ratings" systems. I'm sure it's
coincidental that those systems related Roberto (and Al) very highly...

4) For someone who claims to dislike verbal "attacks" and "rants", you
are VERY fond of "attacking" and "ranting". Is this part of the "do as I
say, not as I do" mentality that is part of your godhood? Asking for a
friend (Actually, I'm not- don't answer).

5) You are a tiresome blowhard who perfectly fits the image of a person
who I'd love to buy for what he is truly worth, then sell for what you
THINK you are worth.

Your act is a played out clown show, too much good in this day for the likes
of you.

Carry on, Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- a couple points:

1) I happen to believe Hank Aaron is the most devastating offensive force
in the past 70ish years of baseball. My 3 favorite players are Roberto,
Hank, and Rod Carew.

2) Your memory is selective (is it alright to say that since you are infallible?
Did I cross some line that challenges your deity-like status? Gosh, I hope
not). I have provided data and other commenters have provided data,
making repetition of it unnecessary. The data points ARE there, for both
players. Some choose Roberto and others choose Al. YOU went off the
reservation with the "overrated" talk. It was off topic, unnecessary, and
provocative- and wrong. I called you on it, which makes you angry
because you've already established that you are never wrong. You are
the nicest guy in the world so long as you make the rules and refuse to
be challenged, right?

3) Much earlier in this thread, you made some numbnuts remark about
not acknowledging outside "player ratings" systems. I'm sure it's
coincidental that those systems related Roberto (and Al) very highly...

4) For someone who claims to dislike verbal "attacks" and "rants", you
are VERY fond of "attacking" and "ranting". Is this part of the "do as I
say, not as I do" mentality that is part of your godhood? Asking for a
friend (Actually, I'm not- don't answer).

5) You are a tiresome blowhard who perfectly fits the image of a person
who I'd love to buy for what he is truly worth, then sell for what you
THINK you are worth.

Your act is a played out clown show, too much good in this day for the likes
of you.

Carry on, Trent King

You realize there is a transcript of what has actually been said, in order, right?

1) - Irrelevant

2) - You haven't called me on anything I've actually said, you've refused to read and screeched. The one specific thing you've tried to call is factually wrong; "great" and "overrated" are not "circular", only you are too stupid to not know this.

3) - This is a complete lie, I did not make any comment to that meaning. Are you genuinely illiterate? Again, there is a public transcript.

4) - Again, I did not say that. I said you attacked another poster who has not even engaged with you, which you very clearly did when you called CampyFan a crack addict, insane, and a fake account for also picking Kaline. There is a transcript. Post 92. Learn to read. You have insulted me about 5 times as much, which is fine, but you have no moral ground here.

5) - Cool.

Adjust your dosage, and get back to reality. I'm sorry you cannot debate on any reasonable grounds and just screech for your pick. Taking me out of it, you have been nothing but an abusive jackass to people who have not even engaged with you if they pick Kaline. Calm yourself.

[cgjackson222]

And yet another thread has been lost to bickering

[Peter_Spaeth]

Clemente and Joe Morgan would be an interesting comparison, although different positions. OPS+ almost identical. Morgan ahead in OBP, Clemente in SLG, although Morgan had more HR. Morgan ahead in WAR. Clemente ahead in H and BA both by comfortable margin. Morgan multiples ahead in SB and BB.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente and Joe Morgan would be an interesting comparison, although different positions. OPS+ almost identical. Morgan ahead in OBP, Clemente in SLG, although Morgan had more HR. Morgan ahead in WAR. Clemente ahead in H and BA both by comfortable margin. Morgan multiples ahead in SB and BB.

That's a tough one. My bias would be against Morgan here slightly, that .271 batting average always bugs me. He was an amazing player with a legitimate claim to possibly being the greatest 2B of all time. Morgan's OBP is weighted against Clemente trading a lot of walks for singles in BA, they're OPS+ is effectively a rounding error adjusting for league. I'd probably have to pick Morgan on defensive grounds. Clemente was a stud fielder, but RF is a lot less important than 2B defensively. Morgan's advantage in that area probably slightly overcomes their almost parallel offensive performance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

That's a tough one. My bias would be against Morgan here slightly, that .271 batting average always bugs me. He was an amazing player with a legitimate claim to possibly being the greatest 2B of all time. Morgan's OBP is weighted against Clemente trading a lot of walks for singles in BA, they're OPS+ is effectively a rounding error adjusting for league. I'd probably have to pick Morgan on defensive grounds. Clemente was a stud fielder, but RF is a lot less important than 2B defensively. Morgan's advantage in that area probably slightly overcomes their almost parallel offensive performance.

600 more SB is significant too IMO. And we're not comparing a slugger to a singles hitter, Morgan had more HR. Clemente averaged less than 5 steals a year.

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- I'll skip G1911 from this point forward, he's a "mother ship" candidate
if ever there was one...

I agree with you completely, this really isn't hard. A poster invited a debate
of Clemente vs Kaline, a thought- provoking notion. People weighed in on
both sides. My side is obvious; however, I would never presume to impugn
the accomplishments/skills of a first time ballot HOFer(!). People brought up
interesting stat comparisons that, in my opinion, still favor Roberto. No big
deal...

The problem with the rhetoric being spewed by (almost exclusively) one
source, is that commentary about being overrated isn't even the topic! It's
not, I've triple checked and most commenters' entries support my belief.
Even if the notion of discussing players who are overrated was somehow
introduced, however, I can't square the idea that the flat best players in
baseball history can somehow be "overrated". They have already been
"rated" by numerous indices. I don't know the total number of MLB players
in it's history, so exact percentages are tough to achieve; however, it is
safe to put Clemente and Kaline in the 99.5th percentile of players to ever
play. Let's say you were a teacher who had the privilege of instructing 2
students through their high school years. One averaged 99.5% in the
teacher's classes, while the other averaged a 99.6%. Is it really accurate
to call the 99.5% student "overrated"? Of course not, he was phenomenal.
It is accurate to claim the 99.6% student was "better", by a whisker. Within
the scope of MLB, then, I'd reserve the "overrated" tag for players who
were huge bonus babies but never panned out, or vets who were paid a ton
and didn't live up to the hype. If someone thinks Aaron was a better
outfielder than Mays, or vice versa, that doesn't make the other guy
"overrated". In the mid 2000s, Eric Milton came to the Reds from Minnesota
with a huge contract for the time. His 3 year results were 16-27 with an ERA
of nearly 6. Now THAT guy was overrated!

Things would be so much easier if people could stick to the topic, or at
least have the good grace to start another thread when they just can't
follow the current one- especially when it's a compelling thread. So, you'll
never get to me to agree that Clemente, Kaline, or whoever are somehow
"overrated"- it would be arrogant for me to argue it, and pointless even if I
had an overly developed sense of my ability as a baseball aficionado. Wiser
minds than our own have already placed them in a well deserved premium
class. Trent King

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente and Joe Morgan would be an interesting comparison, although different positions. OPS+ almost identical. Morgan ahead in OBP, Clemente in SLG, although Morgan had more HR. Morgan ahead in WAR. Clemente ahead in H and BA both by comfortable margin. Morgan multiples ahead in SB and BB.

It's funny, Morgan hated advanced metrics, even though they loved him. Had the courage of his convictions anyway!

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

It's funny, Morgan hated advanced metrics, even though they loved him. Had the courage of his convictions anyway!

So true. Joe Morgan the player had an incredible on base percentage, leading the league in 4 out 5 years between 1972 and 176 (he finished 2nd in 1973). But as announcer, he discredited the concept of OBP being an important factor in winning games. He just didn't like advanced metrics, like you said.

He was one of most balanced players--he did everything well--he stole more bases in his era than anyone not named Lou Brock, and stole at a higher % thank Brock, he hit for average, good power for a 2nd basemen, walked a ton, struck out relatively infrequently, all while fielding decently at 2nd base.

Clemente has been my favorite player since I was a child. And despite the fact that I loathed Joe Morgan as a broadcaster, I'd give him the slight nod over Clemente as a player. However, if Clemente had continued his solid play for a few more years into the mid to late 70's he could have leapfrogged Morgan.

[ALR-bishop]

In seeking to collect every Topps card of both players, including variations ( as part of collecting all Topps sets) I have had to pay more for Clemente in total than Kaline. Which I agree proves little as to this debate.

My most expensive Kaline is probably his 61 Dice card ( Clemente did not have one) or his rookie card. Kaline’s 73 “band aid” variation has gotten pretty pricey.

My most expensive Clemente is probably his rookie card, but his 68 3D is up there and is one of my favorite cards. I still need one of his 67 Punch Out variations and his 68 Disc ( have the 67). Also still need his 67 Stand Up to finish that set

Grew up in St. Louis and did see both play. Kaline in the 68 Series

Two great ball players, under or over

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- here's your quote from post #44, in direct reference to OTHER
commenters' revelations about Roberto/Al's ratings in various systems:

" I do not subscribe to appeals to authority, something is not true or false
because an authority says so".

That is YOU, directly contradicting what you said was a "lie" in your most
recent post, point 3. In essence, while other commenters were showing that
rating systems revealed both players were ranked incredibly high, your reply
was to dismiss ANY rating system, especially one that revealed your
"overrated" remark to be the jackass comment it was. It looks like you
might need to read the transcript, Einstein...

Conclusion: both players are wonderful, first time HOF inductees. Some
prefer Al, others Roberto- which is just fine. The notion that any "best of
the best" players of all time(!) can be "overrated" is an absurdity that exists
only in the minds of people who never played or who, more likely, have too
much time on their hands. It is quasi- intellectual fluffery, nothing more.
Fluffery appears to be your sweet spot, but other folks will oppose it and
refuse to play by your schizoid rules. Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

This really isn't hard. Even within the category of best of the best players, most people would assign a hierarchy or rating system. E.g. all the top 100 lists out there. Therefore, a player can be overrated despite clearly belonging within the category, if one believes the relative rating is too high. That's all we're talking about here.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- here's your quote from post #44, in direct reference to OTHER
commenters' revelations about Roberto/Al's ratings in various systems:

" I do not subscribe to appeals to authority, something is not true or false
because an authority says so".

That is YOU, directly contradicting what you said was a "lie" in your most
recent post, point 3. In essence, while other commenters were showing that
rating systems revealed both players were ranked incredibly high, your reply
was to dismiss ANY rating system, especially one that revealed your
"overrated" remark to be the jackass comment it was. It looks like you
might need to read the transcript, Einstein...

Conclusion: both players are wonderful, first time HOF inductees. Some
prefer Al, others Roberto- which is just fine. The notion that any "best of
the best" players of all time(!) can be "overrated" is an absurdity that exists
only in the minds of people who never played or who, more likely, have too
much time on their hands. It is quasi- intellectual fluffery, nothing more.
Fluffery appears to be your sweet spot, but other folks will oppose it and
refuse to play by your schizoid rules. Trent King

Are you not familiar with an appeal to authority? Your claim was I said something "about not acknowledging outside "player ratings" systems. That quote is not me not acknowledging other people have rated players? At all? I spoke about James very favorably, specifically. What I said is that a person's rating does not make it true; that the preceding appeal to authority, that Clemente is better because some have rated him so, is not rational. Which it isn't. A thing is true or false on the facts, not on who ranked them where. Appeals to authority are a fallacy. That doesn't make other peoples rankings are right or wrong. It certainly doesn't mean they don't exist. I explicitly said it was BillJames 2003 Abstract, a thousand page book of player rankings, that got me into the advanced statistics side of baseball. It's in the transcript. In order.

As others have explained to you, that is not circular or contradictory. "Great" and "overrated" are not a contradiction, at all. That is a fact. You really need to learn some basic logic and key terms if you want to do this.

Please learn to use the quote button. Debate on reasonable grounds. As I said in my first post, it's a very close toss up. You need to calm down and stop attacking everyone, including people who have not engaged with your schtick that you have abused and labelled cocaine users, fake and insane, if they don't pick your pick.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by G1911

This shouldn’t even need to be said. One may like Clemente more, but to assert he is better is so far off from reality that it’s just absurd. The fanboys in this thread…

Absurd, nutball crazy, unhinged, fanboys, etc. You take these arguments to an extreme.