PWCC expands its lending activities

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

PWCC and PSA continue to thrive despite the relentless withering condemnation of the Net 54 board. I guess there's a moral in there somewhere.

Or a lack of them.

[BobC]

Just another example of how some cards are becoming even more like investments, and not so much just a hobby anymore. Maybe it will go far enough so that one day TPGs are finally forced to comply with some standardized rules and become subject to independent oversight. Aaaahhhhh, one can dream, right?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Just another example of how some cards are becoming even more like investments, and not so much just a hobby anymore. Maybe it will go far enough so that one day TPGs are finally forced to comply with some standardized rules and become subject to independent oversight. Aaaahhhhh, one can dream, right?

It won't happen unless someone makes it happen. Who is that someone?

[parkplace33]

I joked a few years ago about auction houses having their own credit line you can use for purchases.

That is no longer a joke.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It won't happen unless someone makes it happen. Who is that someone?

LOL

If I knew of some way to do it, I would. But I would need to get the entire hobby/investing community to buy in and all agree. That will never happen though.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It won't happen unless someone makes it happen. Who is that someone?

Who is John Galt?

[raulus]

Obviously everyone who’s anyone is getting into the vault game these days.

And I suppose there’s some subset of the population that will find it useful…

But I just don’t trust anyone to hold onto my cards for me!

If I hold them in the vault for the next 30 years, what’s to keep them from wandering off, getting filched, or mysteriously disappearing? Can I swing by the vault every few weeks to check in on them? If others are swinging by the vault, are they fingering my items as they pass by?

And for that matter, what happens if these vault companies go under? Based on all of the crypto “banks” that have gone under and taken people’s crypto with them, it seems like the same problem could easily exist here.

Even if there are published policies and safeguards and insurance and whatnot, why risk it if it’s never really been tested to really know for sure?

And that’s overlooking the most obvious drawback - staring at pictures on a screen and knowing that my collection is (hopefully) sitting in a vault somewhere is not the same thing as actually enjoying them!!!

[Rhotchkiss]

I do not use a vault. But I do think the vault concept is a great idea. Not only does it legally avoid state tax (if the vault is in a tax exempt state and the card is held there long enough), but it’s an apparently very safe place to store valuable assets. Would people question someone who had their cards sent to a Bank of America safety deposit box located in Delaware (or Oregon)? This is very similar to that, except it’s PWCC/Goldin/EBay, etc instead of Bank of America.

If you trust the vault owner (and that’s a legit “if”), and you don’t care about seeing and touching your cards on a regular basis… than why not? This especially true if you are buying expensive cards and savings tens of thousands on taxes. And you don’t have to worry about theft, fire, flood, etc., can use these cards as collateral for loans, have a third party inventory and track your cards, and you can resell them right there without having to deal with mail.

Meanwhile, you are going to see generic vaults pop up all over. Banks are closing brick and mortar locations, and with them, the safety deposits contained therein. There will be a shift to private vaults (or safety deposit spaces). It’s no different than self storage for expensive/important stuff. The vault is for cards specifically, but it’s coming on a more general, mainstream level

Regarding state taxes- it is not avoidance if the card is sent and remains in the tax exempt state for a meaningful duration. I am not sure what that is, but 2 years is most definitely sufficient. It’s also sufficient if it’s sent there and leaves within months bc it’s sold to another. There are real and substantial business reasons for sending your cards to a vault, especially if they are assets, that have nothing to do with tax avoidance - safe protection, storage, serve as collateral for a loan, third party inventory/tracking/reporting (they make your collection “spreadsheets”), ease of resale, etc.

[Johnny630]

This is Desperate. I''LL CONTINUE TO AVOID PWCC AT ALL COST.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

This is Desperate. I''LL CONTINUE TO AVOID PWCC AT ALL COST.

Why is it desperate? Brent is smart and sees ways to generate revenue.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

This is Desperate. I''LL CONTINUE TO AVOID PWCC AT ALL COST.

I agree, dishonest people don’t just take a shower and become clean. I take my business elsewhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I do think many people use the vault option to avoid taxes and take their cards out of the vault very quickly, and then fail to pay their state the taxes that automatically would have been collected by ebay.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I do think many people use the vault option to avoid taxes and take their cards out of the vault very quickly, and then fail to pay their state the taxes that automatically would have been collected by ebay.

I guess living in Oregon, I forget that everyone else gets to pay sales taxes, sometimes up to 10%.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by raulus

I guess living in Oregon, I forget that everyone else gets to pay sales taxes, sometimes up to 10%.

And there goes my competitive advantage when competing against other bidders for high priced items!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by raulus

I guess living in Oregon, I forget that everyone else gets to pay sales taxes, sometimes up to 10%.

Or OVER 10% if you live just one state north of you.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Or OVER 10% if you live just one state north of you.

If it makes you feel any better, with single party hegemony here in Oregon, our politicos are working hard to implement a sales tax. As with all taxes, they will sell us all on the low rate, but it will just be a matter of time until we rival WA. Plus we have among the highest state income tax rates in the country, whereas you have none!

[Johnny630]

Collectors I know are not interested in using this kind of service. They want the cards in their possession. Investors/Day Traders May Be Intrigued by this Kind of Like Buying Stock on Leverage, take out a loan against your cards in their vault. If they drop your SOL, you still owe back the loan difference Once they sell your card at less than your loan. I guess this is where we are at...PWCC THE NEW BROKERAGE HOUSE FOR TRADING CARD ASSETS. WHAT A BEAUTIFUL STORY.

PWCC THE E TRADE OF SPORT CARD'S

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I do think many people use the vault option to avoid taxes and take their cards out of the vault very quickly, and then fail to pay their state the taxes that automatically would have been collected by ebay.

That is tax avoidance, and those people could get in trouble. Also, it would make sense if the vault was required to collect and pay over state taxes for items removed from a vault and sent to a tax state within X months of receipt. I don’t know if such a law/requirement exists.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That is tax avoidance, and those people could get in trouble. Also, it would make sense if the vault was required to collect and pay over state taxes for items removed from a vault and sent to a tax state within X months of receipt. I don’t know if such a law/requirement exists.

I believe it is up to the individual to pay state use tax, I can't see how that is the vault owner's burden.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I believe it is up to the individual to pay state use tax, I can't see how that is the vault owner's burden.

I’m guessing it’s just a matter of time until CA and other states get wise to the vaults and start requiring reporting to get their use tax from the collector. I just don’t see the states being willing to forego that much revenue without a fight.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I believe it is up to the individual to pay state use tax, I can't see how that is the vault owner's burden.

I am sure there is something agency or bailment law that states could use to impose some burden on the vault. I know it’s somewhat different, but if eBay has to issue 1099s to anyone who sells more than $600 (or something like that), than I am sure “they” can find a way to make a vault collect sales taxes on item received and released within a certain period.

It’s a brave new world. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. The states love all of this new revenue. They will fight hard to ensure it if they start losing enough to vaults.

Personally, I don’t think state sales taxes should be due on items bought for investment. We don’t pay sales tax on stock, bonds, and precious metals in many states. Why cards held for investment? We don’t “use” or consume cards.

[Kidnapped18]

I think this is great news! PWCC saw a need and filled it for their customers. I have never had a problem with PWCC and still use their platform to purchase cards most recently this week. I even have a handful of cards in the Vault. I know not all on this board agree with or deal with PWCC but I like the loan concept and cards as collateral.

FWIW PWCC collects state taxes when you pay for the items and have them shipped to you.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That is tax avoidance, and those people could get in trouble. Also, it would make sense if the vault was required to collect and pay over state taxes for items removed from a vault and sent to a tax state within X months of receipt. I don’t know if such a law/requirement exists.

We've discussed this before. To my knowledge no state has a period of time in their sales and use tax laws for this specific situation. However, I had mentioned once before how California has a specific 1 year threshold for vehicles brought into California. Bought it less than a year before bringing it into CA and you owe CA the difference between the sales tax you would have paid them had you originally bought the vehicle in CA, less whatever sales tax you did pay to another state when you bought it. Own the vehicle a year or more before bringing it into CA, and CA gets no sales/use tax.

So the concept of moving assets you own from one state to another doesn't necessarily and/or automatically trigger sales/use tax being owed to the state you're moving them into. If you leave cards in a vault for a reasonable period of time before taking them out and to your home, your resident state will likely not come looking for sales/use tax on those cards. We just haven't had this issue come up in any courts yet, to my knowledge, nor had any state spell out in their statutes how long you'd have to leave the cards in a vault for before you could then safely bring them home without any sales/use tax being due your resident state. At least not yet.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by BobC

We've discussed this before. To my knowledge no state has a period of time in their sales and use tax laws for this specific situation. However, I had mentioned once before how California has a specific 1 year threshold for vehicles brought into California. Bought it less than a year before bringing it into CA and you owe CA the difference between the sales tax you would have paid them had you originally bought the vehicle in CA, less whatever sales tax you did pay to another state when you bought it. Own the vehicle a year or more before bringing it into CA, and CA gets no sales/use tax.

So the concept of moving assets you own from one state to another doesn't necessarily and/or automatically trigger sales/use tax being owed to the state you're moving them into. If you leave cards in a vault for a reasonable period of time before taking them out and to your home, your resident state will likely not come looking for sales/use tax on those cards. We just haven't had this issue come up in any courts yet, to my knowledge, nor had any state spell out in their statutes how long you'd have to leave the cards in a vault for before you could then safely bring them home without any sales/use tax being due your resident state. At least not yet.

It seems like it would be very easy for states with sales tax on collectibles to close this loophole.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That is tax avoidance, and those people could get in trouble. Also, it would make sense if the vault was required to collect and pay over state taxes for items removed from a vault and sent to a tax state within X months of receipt. I don’t know if such a law/requirement exists.

Thinking back to my tax class that is tax evasion. Tax avoidance is good, tax evasion is breaking the law.

tax avoidance—An action taken to lessen tax liability and maximize after-tax income. tax evasion—The failure to pay or a deliberate underpayment of taxes.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Thinking back to my tax class that is tax evasion. Tax avoidance is good, tax evasion is breaking the law.

tax avoidance—An action taken to lessen tax liability and maximize after-tax income. tax evasion—The failure to pay or a deliberate underpayment of taxes.

Absolutely correct Jay. Had often told clients, tax evasion is a crime, but tax avoidance is your constitutional and God given right. LOL

In Ryan's defense, I'm guessing he just mixed up the terminology and was referring to the idea of people using a vault purposely to get out of paying sales tax. And doing so by almost immediately pulling out cards they had sent to a vault and having them sent to their residence.

However, as Peter later pointed out, I don't believe it would be the vault company's responsibility to ever collect and remit sales taxes to any state on behalf of a card's owner. The vault company only provides a storage service, and to my knowledge has nothing to do with actual sale or purchase of items, nor in the handling of any monies involved in such sales. In the case of PWCC and Goldin, who both provide vault services, I believe their vault operations are set up as/in completely different business entities from their auction/sales businesses. It would be stupid business practice to have their different operations all in one single entity, and I don't think either of them are stupid by any means. As Peter stated, it would most likely be considered a use tax owed by the individual who bought the card and then took it out of a vault right away to add to their personal collection at their home. How a state is going to find out about such individuals who may may be abusing this practice, remains to be seen.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That is tax avoidance, and those people could get in trouble. Also, it would make sense if the vault was required to collect and pay over state taxes for items removed from a vault and sent to a tax state within X months of receipt. I don’t know if such a law/requirement exists.

When I tried to have cards from my vault sent to my home address in CA, PWCC told me they would have to charge me sales tax unless I could provide them with a CA state resale permit.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

When I tried to have cards from my vault sent to my home address in CA, PWCC told me they would have to charge me sales tax unless I could provide them with a CA state resale permit.

Interesting. PWCC isn't making a sale, so I am surprised they feel obligated to do that. I thought sales tax was only collected in connection with a sale.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

When I tried to have cards from my vault sent to my home address in CA, PWCC told me they would have to charge me sales tax unless I could provide them with a CA state resale permit.

There you go. Even the good folks at PWCC are above aiding and abetting tax evasion.

And if it also happens to mean that now you're locked into their system, then I guess they won't complain too much about it.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Snowman

When I tried to have cards from my vault sent to my home address in CA, PWCC told me they would have to charge me sales tax unless I could provide them with a CA state resale permit.

If that's the case, then people have a substantial disincentive to remove their items from the vault. I can see investors deciding to just leave their inventory there, for PWCC to eventually sell for them, rather than having a major AH sell them, factoring in the hit when removed from PWCC's vault.

As far as borrowing money using inventory in the vault as collateral, I wonder what would (will) happen when the market on a lot of stuff takes a corrective dip. Capital calls to restore the collateral percentage?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

When I tried to have cards from my vault sent to my home address in CA, PWCC told me they would have to charge me sales tax unless I could provide them with a CA state resale permit.

I wonder how many people are using the vault on the assumption they won't have to pay sales tax, ever, unless they volunteer it.

Has this happened to anyone else? As a friend points out to me, wouldn't this be a huge story in the hobby if the vault no longer avoided sales tax?

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I do not use a vault. But I do think the vault concept is a great idea. Not only does it legally avoid state tax (if the vault is in a tax exempt state and the card is held there long enough), but it’s an apparently very safe place to store valuable assets. Would people question someone who had their cards sent to a Bank of America safety deposit box located in Delaware (or Oregon)? This is very similar to that, except it’s PWCC/Goldin/EBay, etc instead of Bank of America.

If you trust the vault owner (and that’s a legit “if”), and you don’t care about seeing and touching your cards on a regular basis… than why not? This especially true if you are buying expensive cards and savings tens of thousands on taxes. And you don’t have to worry about theft, fire, flood, etc., can use these cards as collateral for loans, have a third party inventory and track your cards, and you can resell them right there without having to deal with mail.

Meanwhile, you are going to see genetic vaults pop up all over. Banks are closing brick and mortar locations, and with them, the safety deposits contained therein. There will be a shift to private vaults (or safety deposit spaces). It’s no different than self storage for expensive/important stuff. The vault is for cards specifically, but it’s coming on a more general, mainstream level

Regarding state taxes- it is not avoidance if the card is sent and remains in the tax exempt state for a meaningful duration. I am not sure what that is, but 2 years is most definitely sufficient. It’s also sufficient if it’s sent there and leaves within months bc it’s sold to another. There are real and substantial business reasons for sending your cards to a vault, especially if they are assets, that have nothing to do with tax avoidance - safe protection, storage, serve as collateral for a loan, third party inventory/tracking/reporting (they make your collection “spreadsheets”), ease of resale, etc.

The comp with BAM is a bit ridiculous. Banks are VERY highly regulated, and failure rates are absurdly low.

PWCC may own a vault that has similar features to a bank vault but that's where the similarity ends. The risk in keeping cards in one of these vaults isn't that someone will break in, or there will be a fire. That is marketing and appears it is working. Loss due to theft or fire is covered by insurance.

The real risk is that the business fails, a bankruptcy follows, and your cards are being held / secured by another party. Which has happened in other vault type business, wine for instance. Add in that folks are borrowing against those cards and in the case of a business failure, someone else will have dibs on your stuff.

I know business failure is hard to fathom after the crazy 10 year bull run but large companies fail on the regular, none of us have any idea what PWCC's financials look like.

[rjackson44]

i have a vault at my beach house ,,,this is securty

[glchen]

Originally Posted by raulus

And for that matter, what happens if these vault companies go under? Based on all of the crypto “banks” that have gone under and taken people’s crypto with them, it seems like the same problem could easily exist here.

This is what I am concerned about with PWCC's lending activities and using the Vault as leverage. Has anyone who uses Vaults checked on what happens if PWCC goes bankrupt? Can they take your cards and use it to pay off their creditors? This is what happened to some of the crypto firms like Celsius that went bankrupt. Folks who kept their crypto in those firms were not able to access their holdings anymore. If leverage like this is propping up card values, this may be what may ultimately cause the market to pop later.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by glchen

This is what I am concerned about with PWCC's lending activities and using the Vault as leverage. Has anyone who uses Vaults checked on what happens if PWCC goes bankrupt? Can they take your cards and use it to pay off their creditors? This is what happened to some of the crypto firms like Celsius that went bankrupt. Folks who kept their crypto in those firms were not able to access their holdings anymore. If leverage like this is propping up card values, this may be what may ultimately cause the market to pop later.

Ohhhh. The Market could POP too? What could possibly go wrong where Brent Mastro, known 5-pronged fraudster is concerned LOL

[Exhibitman]

I greet the news with the same emotion as any PWCC news:



They can do whatever they want and I do not care since I will never do business with them. I don't lay down with dogs and I don't wake up with fleas.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I greet the news with the same emotion as any PWCC news:

Image deleted

They can do whatever they want and I do not care since I will never do business with them. I don't lay down with dogs and I don't wake up with fleas.

That's so disgusting. Do you have to post that? It isn't original, it isn't funny, and it isn't appropriate. It makes you look like you're 12 years old.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

That's so disgusting. Do you have to post that? It isn't original, it isn't funny, and it isn't appropriate. It makes you look like you're 12 years old.

We collect baseball cards. I think the maturity thing went out the window a long time ago.

[Lorewalker]

Not sure if this hook up with the lender is suggestive of PWCC growing or not. What it is incredible to me that after their suspension from eBay for shill bidding on top of a multi year FBI investigation into that and the card altering, that anyone wants anything at all to do with them. Not to imply that every other industry entity is run beyond reproach by ethical law abiding people but some actually are. Fraud has clearly found its way into the industry and made itself right at home.

Done business with PWCC but none since I was put on notice as to their now obvious business practices. So to bring this back to the thread topic, I would stash my collection in Hefty trash bags outside my home before I left anything with him at the vault. Even if the material is not at risk, should something go down, who knows what a nightmare it would be trying to retrieve the material.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by glchen

This is what I am concerned about with PWCC's lending activities and using the Vault as leverage. Has anyone who uses Vaults checked on what happens if PWCC goes bankrupt? Can they take your cards and use it to pay off their creditors? This is what happened to some of the crypto firms like Celsius that went bankrupt. Folks who kept their crypto in those firms were not able to access their holdings anymore. If leverage like this is propping up card values, this may be what may ultimately cause the market to pop later.

And this is a big reason why I'm guessing the vault services are provided by entirely separate companies than the related AH/sales companies. At least it now lets people know to ask these vault providers how their businesses are set up, and if they are independent and totally separate from other possibly commonly owned businesses. And by separate, I mean where there is not just one single business that owns and runs the AH/sales operation and the vault, or where one is a total or partially owned subsidiary business of the other. And you can have both businesses owned entirely by the same people, yet they ae still considered separate as long as the businesses themselves don't own any part of each other.

My guess is the operation lending people money on their collectibles may be set up as an entirely different/separate business and entity from the vault and AH/sales businesses as well. Would make some sense.