Heritage Rosen Mantle - Greatest Card Ever Auctioned?

[Hankphenom]

1) Is this the Alex Chilton of Boxtops fame card?
2) How did this card achieve such iconic status over so many other great cards in the hobby? This seemed to happen very quickly, was this a recent development and perhaps the result of a PR campaign? It certainly can't have the rarity of many other iconic cards, and Mantle, great as he was, is not on the level of many other all-time greats, so what made this a 10M card?
3) If this is truly a 10M card as decreed by the market, what other cards are poised to enter that rarefied realm that not even a Wagner has achieved yet. Baltimore Ruth? Goudey Lajoie? What else?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

1) Is this the Alex Chilton of Boxtops fame card?
2) How did this card achieve such iconic status over so many other great cards in the hobby? This seemed to happen very quickly, was this a recent development and perhaps the result of a PR campaign? It certainly can't have the rarity of many other iconic cards, and Mantle, great as he was, is not on the level of many other all-time greats, so what made this a 10M card?
3) If this is truly a 10M card as decreed by the market, what other cards are poised to enter that rarefied realm that not even a Wagner has achieved yet. Baltimore Ruth? Goudey Lajoie? What else?

Balt ruth…t206 Wagner…thats it!

[MattyC]

Gotta love all the classic online bile. Bile against Mantle. Bile against the 52T Mantle. Bile against the assumed buyer. The card was gorgeous and someone with the bank bought it for a bundle. While some marinate in their toxic bile I'm gonna enjoy a beautiful Sunday, maybe enjoy some cards later.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Gotta love all the classic online bile. Bile against Mantle. Bile against the 52T Mantle. Bile against the assumed buyer. The card was gorgeous and someone with the bank bought it for a bundle. While some marinate in their toxic bile I'm gonna enjoy a beautiful Sunday, maybe enjoy some cards later.

Who has criticized Mickey Mantle? Do you not know the card is not a rookie? Did you not know it was a DP? Do you not understand it does not meet SGC’s published criteria of a 9.5? What statement is “bile”?

Got to love the pumpers.

[GregC]

Originally Posted by G1911

Who has criticized Mickey Mantle? Do you not know the card is not a rookie? Did you not know it was a DP? Do you not understand it does not meet SGC’s published criteria of a 9.5? What statement is “bile”?

Got to love the pumpers.

Who needs to “pump” a 52 mantle? It’s been the most sought after and valuable post war card since I remember buying my first Beckett in 1986 lol. I’d say it’s a relatively known quantity at this point. I’d say Matt knows all those two facts about it not being a rookie and it being a DP as does 99.9% of the hobby participants of this board. Bottom line is this was a great example of a great card that brought out some heavy action.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by GregC

Who needs to “pump” a 52 mantle? It’s been the most sought after and valuable post war card since I remember buying my first Beckett in 1986 lol. I’d say it’s a relatively known quantity at this point. I’d say Matt knows all those two facts about it not being a rookie and it being a DP as does 99.9% of the hobby participants of this board. Bottom line is this was a great example of a great card that brought out some heavy action.

That it no longer needs the pumpers to keep escalating doesn't seem to stop them from getting upset by anything said about the card that is factually correct but does not serve to pump it.

Nobody has said anything against this card that is not factually correct. It is a DP. It is not a rookie. No one has criticized Mantle whatsoever. For the tenth time in this thread, nobody has said it is not a great example of a great card that would and did bring out big bucks.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by GregC

Who needs to “pump” a 52 mantle? It’s been the most sought after and valuable post war card since I remember buying my first Beckett in 1986 lol. I’d say it’s a relatively known quantity at this point. I’d say Matt knows all those two facts about it not being a rookie and it being a DP as does 99.9% of the hobby participants of this board. Bottom line is this was a great example of a great card that brought out some heavy action.

Agreed. Been the most sought after card since I sent in a $75.00 check mail order to Larry Fritsch in 1974. Got a Koufax Rookie and a $25.00 credit memo. Only had to pay 200 times that in 2019 for a short print, non rookie, LOLOL It wasn't short print Triple cheeseburger logo man patch autograph prizm panini sandwich metal cracked ice reflection chrome purple rainbow parallel base 1 of 1 PSA 10

[Peter_Spaeth]

Heritage did well to call it the finest #311 ever, and to put it on the flip, because even if it isn't, the description takes on a life of its own and the card becomes unique.

As one of my favorite quotes (Wallace Stevens) goes, what we said of it became a part of what it is..

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Heritage did well to call it the finest #311 ever, and to put it on the flip, because even if it isn't, the description takes on a life of its own and the card becomes unique.

As one of my favorite quotes (Wallace Stevens) goes, what we said of it became a part of what it is..

I have read much of Stevens work but do not remember that line, that's a good one. If you BS hard and long enough, the BS often becomes accepted as valid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I have read much of Stevens work but do not remember that line, that's a good one. If you BS hard and long enough, the BS often becomes accepted as valid.

Postcard From the Volcano, as I recall.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I have read much of Stevens work but do not remember that line, that's a good one. If you BS hard and long enough, the BS often becomes accepted as valid.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Goebbels.

As proven by DJT, but let's not get too political.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Heritage did well to call it the finest #311 ever, and to put it on the flip, because even if it isn't, the description takes on a life of its own and the card becomes unique.

As one of my favorite quotes (Wallace Stevens) goes, what we said of it became a part of what it is..

sort of a corollary to Schroedinger's cat. Instead of it isn't anything until it's observed, it isn't anything until it's hyped?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Who has criticized Mickey Mantle? Do you not know the card is not a rookie? Did you not know it was a DP? Do you not understand it does not meet SGC’s published criteria of a 9.5? What statement is “bile”?

Got to love the pumpers.

Yeah his post was self-serving. Apparently his Sunday is/was not going quite as good as he stated. Happens. Hopefully Mon is better for him.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Yeah his post was self-serving. Apparently his Sunday is/was not going quite as good as he stated. Happens. Hopefully Mon is better for him.

The 52 Topps Mantle is very unique in the emotional connection people seem have to it. It seems like half the hobby gets triggered if you simply state "the card is a double print" or correctly state that it's not a rookie (it's, what, his third or fourth mainstream card?). These statements are undeniably 100% factually true, and are not even an assault on the card, but it ruins a lot of Sunday's. It's the only card for which people do this. Tell the T206 guys that there are many cards rarer than a Wagner and they will agree with you instead of getting pissed. Tell a Baltimore Ruth fan that the card isn't a rookie but a pre-rookie because it's not a major league card and they will agree it's a minor league card. I suspect the reason for this is that the Mantle card is not difficult or rare and there are tons of copies, so many collectors own one and are bought into the seemingly never-ending pump with a vested interest in rocketing that as high as possible. T206 Wagner owners are much fewer and don't have to go agro to defend their investment because its demand and growth was more organic instead of an investment hype train.

Fans of the T206 Wagner, the Baltimore Ruth, and other cards have never tried to claim Mr. Mint as an authority of integrity before that's for sure

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think Matt just loves the card and takes this shit personally, I don't think he's pumping it.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

The 52 Topps Mantle is very unique in the emotional connection people seem have to it. It seems like half the hobby gets triggered if you simply state "the card is a double print" or correctly state that it's not a rookie (it's, what, his third or fourth mainstream card?). These statements are undeniably 100% factually true, and are not even an assault on the card, but it ruins a lot of Sunday's. It's the only card for which people do this. Tell the T206 guys that there are many cards rarer than a Wagner and they will agree with you instead of getting pissed. Tell a Baltimore Ruth fan that the card isn't a rookie but a pre-rookie because it's not a major league card and they will agree it's a minor league card. I suspect the reason for this is that the Mantle card is not difficult or rare and there are tons of copies, so many collectors own one and are bought into the seemingly never-ending pump with a vested interest in rocketing that as high as possible. T206 Wagner owners are much fewer and don't have to go agro to defend their investment because its demand and growth was more organic instead of an investment hype train.

Fans of the T206 Wagner, the Baltimore Ruth, and other cards have never tried to claim Mr. Mint as an authority of integrity before that's for sure

I would wager that even the most ardent or sensitive owners of the double printed 2nd year card of Mantle--the 1952 Topps--would probably agree that the appreciation the card has seen is somewhat disproportionate. Given the sheer number of them that have survived there are a great deal of collectors who have benefited from its appreciation over the last few years so I can see why saying anything negative even about the 1952 Topps set might put in jeopardy someone's Sunday.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by G1911

The 52 Topps Mantle is very unique in the emotional connection people seem have to it. It seems like half the hobby gets triggered if you simply state "the card is a double print" or correctly state that it's not a rookie (it's, what, his third or fourth mainstream card?). These statements are undeniably 100% factually true, and are not even an assault on the card, but it ruins a lot of Sunday's. It's the only card for which people do this. Tell the T206 guys that there are many cards rarer than a Wagner and they will agree with you instead of getting pissed. Tell a Baltimore Ruth fan that the card isn't a rookie but a pre-rookie because it's not a major league card and they will agree it's a minor league card. I suspect the reason for this is that the Mantle card is not difficult or rare and there are tons of copies, so many collectors own one and are bought into the seemingly never-ending pump with a vested interest in rocketing that as high as possible. T206 Wagner owners are much fewer and don't have to go agro to defend their investment because its demand and growth was more organic instead of an investment hype train.

Fans of the T206 Wagner, the Baltimore Ruth, and other cards have never tried to claim Mr. Mint as an authority of integrity before that's for sure

Some good points there.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by G1911

Who has criticized Mickey Mantle? Do you not know the card is not a rookie? Did you not know it was a DP? Do you not understand it does not meet SGC’s published criteria of a 9.5? What statement is “bile”?

Got to love the pumpers.

You don't know me for shit, pal. So don't pretend to know my motivations for what I type. I could not give a rat's ass about the price of my cards. Maybe you "invest," since you typed about that above. If we're going to ascribe motivation behind posts, perhaps you're not pleased with the state of your own cardboard investments relative to cards like the Mantle? Despite all those facts— it being a DP, the 51B being his RC (tragically underappreciated, relative to the 52T, I might add)— the card world has never cared. Not for decades upon decades now. So you can shout those facts at the sky in some desperate schadenfreude Hail Mary that people will wake up one day and dislike it, yet other facts and intangibles about the card will win the day as they always have and always will. Its desirability and popularity endure. Some seem to have an axe to grind against the card, and get triggered when they contemplate its status and popularity— the motivations behind that would probably not be hard to divine.

Not all of us look at our cards as investments and not all enthusiasm is financially motivated. I buy cards because I collect, though I sell on rare occasion when I have doubles or want something new. As to your condescendingly written string of questions about the card, yes: I know as much about his cards as you or anyone, for that matter.

You don't seem to understand the very real concepts of eye appeal or centering in the vintage space and how they in effect create rarity, from your comments about the sheer pop of the card. It is specious at best and disingenuous at worst to cite sheer pop numbers, when we all know an overwhelming percentage of those that exist possess average eye appeal. At best.

I don't need to nor have I ever "pumped" anything. Let alone the standard-bearer of the hobby, alongside the Wagner. Newsflash: people can be huge lovers of the 52T Mantle and the likes of a Wagner, Fred Foto Ruth, '25 Exhibit Lou, T210 Jackson, and '84 Donruss Mattingly. These are not mutually exclusive camps. If I posted extensively, as I have in the past, about my love of any of those cards, it would not be pumping. And as to what owners of this card or that card or the other card behave like... one thing I haven't seen fellow owners of the Mantle do is take time out to take negative pot shots at other great cards.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by MattyC

You don't know me for shit, pal. So don't pretend to know my motivations for what I type. I could not give a rat's ass about the price of my cards. Maybe you "invest," since you typed about that above. If we're going to ascribe motivation behind posts, perhaps you're not pleased with the state of your own cardboard investments relative to cards like the Mantle? Not all of us look at our cards as investments and not all enthusiasm is financially motivated. I buy cards because I collect, though I sell on rare occasion when I have doubles or want something new. As to your questions about the card, yes: I know as much about his cards as you or anyone, for that matter.

You don't seem to understand the very real concepts of eye appeal or centering in the vintage space and how they in effect create rarity, from your comments about the sheer pop of the card. It is specious at best and disingenuous at worst to cite sheer pop numbers, when we all know an overwhelming percentage of those that exist possess average eye appeal. At best.

I don't need to nor have I ever "pumped" anything. Let alone the standard-bearer of the hobby, alongside the Wagner.

I believe that to be genuine.

[Rhotchkiss]

My most “modern” card is a 33 Goudey. Yet, I jumped at the chance to buy this amazing Tim Carroll piece (baseball cards made of cut up baseball cards) when it became available, because after the t206 Wagner, the 1952 Topps Mantle is the most iconic card. Fact, end of story.

[G1911]

Wow, this is unhinged. You are pumping in this thread, and openly so with your hyperbolic statements and outrage at people who are not even critical of the card but just not pumping it. Go read your own posts. I guess your Sunday was, indeed, ruined.

Originally Posted by MattyC

You don't know me for shit, pal. So don't pretend to know my motivations for what I type.

Did you see where I specifically said that I am not proscribing motivation, and do not care what the motivation is, and declined to speculate on it when your pals jumped in? I don't know why you type what you type, and I do not care. I can simply read.

Originally Posted by MattyC

I could not give a rat's ass about the price of my cards. Maybe you "invest," since you typed about that above. If we're going to ascribe motivation behind posts, perhaps you're not pleased with the state of your own cardboard investments relative to cards like the Mantle? Despite all those facts— it being a DP, the 51B being his RC (tragically underappreciated, relative to the 52T, I might add)— the card world has never cared. Not for decades upon decades now. So you can shout those facts at the sky in some desperate schadenfreude Hail Mary that people will wake up one day and dislike it, yet other facts and intangibles about the card will win the day as they always have and always will. Its desirability and popularity endure. Some seem to have an axe to grind against the card, and get triggered when they contemplate its status and popularity— the motivations behind that would probably not be hard to divine.

I don't invest. I'd like for the card market to collapse, and have openly stated so here multiple times. My hobby dollars would buy more cards if it did to enjoy as cards.

Again, no one is attacking the 52 Mantle. I even said it was a great card last night, for the tenth time. Some of us just aren't pumping it. You are going ballistic at things not even critical of the card or hating on it. Get a grip.

Originally Posted by MattyC

Not all of us look at our cards as investments and not all enthusiasm is financially motivated. I buy cards because I collect, though I sell on rare occasion when I have doubles or want something new. As to your condescendingly written string of questions about the card, yes: I know as much about his cards as you or anyone, for that matter.

My condescending questions are asking you to back up the load of complete bullshit you spewed. Where did anyone attack Mantle? When? Your claim to authority, that you know more about Mickey and his cards than me or anyone else in the world, is a bizarre ego flex but utterly irrelevant to anything I actually said.

Originally Posted by MattyC

You don't seem to understand the very real concepts of eye appeal or centering in the vintage space and how they in effect create rarity, from your comments about the sheer pop of the card. It is specious at best and disingenuous at worst to cite sheer pop numbers, when we all know an overwhelming percentage of those that exist possess average eye appeal. At best.

I must seriously question your grip on reality by this point. When did I say the card is not a condition rarity? When did I say most copies are centered? I said there are many copies out there and so many more hobbyists are invested into it than most of the marquee cards. That is a fact. Can you try to deal with reality and what was actually said instead of the shit you make up?

Originally Posted by MattyC

I don't need to nor have I ever "pumped" anything. Let alone the standard-bearer of the hobby, alongside the Wagner. Newsflash: people can be huge lovers of the 52T Mantle and the likes of a Wagner, Fred Foto Ruth, '25 Exhibit Lou, T210 Jackson, and '84 Donruss Mattingly. These are not mutually exclusive camps. If I posted extensively, as I have in the past, about my love of any of those cards, it would not be pumping. And as to what owners of this card or that card or the other card behave like... one thing I haven't seen fellow owners of the Mantle do is take time out to take negative pot shots at other great cards.

This is a wonderful example of what I mean about the 52 Mantle. Anything said about it that does not pump it's rep severely triggers a number of hobbyists, no matter how true the statement is. I called it a great card of a young Mantle from a great set with a great picture. Only to you is that an unbridled attack on the card.

Go renew your prescription and get a grip.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Wow, this is unhinged. You are pumping in this thread, and openly so with your hyperbolic statements and outrage at people who are not even critical of the card but just not pumping it. Go read your own posts. I guess your Sunday was, indeed, ruined.

Well I do not know about his Sunday but I know his Tuesday is not off to a great start.



This is from his post starting this thread:

Originally Posted by MattyC

Wonder where it will end-- wonder how it will affect the card in all grades, especially those examples with rare centering.

And excerpts from today:

Originally Posted by MattyC

I could not give a rat's ass about the price of my cards.

Originally Posted by MattyC

Not all of us look at our cards as investments and not all enthusiasm is financially motivated.

Today is probably not the day to ask but I cannot help but wonder how the first quote does not entirely contradict the premise of his post today.

[phillyfan24]

[QUOTE=MattyC;2258260]
You don't seem to understand the very real concepts of eye appeal or centering in the vintage space and how they in effect create rarity

I got into graded cards just under 10 years ago. Didn't know anything about grading companies. I was a HUGE Phillies and M. Schmidt fan as a kid. Had my childhood 73 M. Schmidt rookie card, and somehow came across graded cards. It just fascinated me and had to learn more. Among other things I joined Net54. I asked questions here etc. and Matty was always willing to answer and help me in my understanding of this new adventure.

The very first bit of advice he gave me was that he valued "Centering" first and foremost because it gave out the best "Eye Appeal". In my mind no truer or better advice can be given!

Well as a bit of time passed me and Matty became card acquaintances as I'll put it. We emailed and discussed the hoppy etc. I even purchased some great cards. Including a beautiful 1973 M. Schmidt PSA 9, that I had to make an offer he couldn't refuse because he didn't want to give it up. That card I've had a long time (can't believe it's been about 8 years).

My point is that in my experience with Matty. I've found him to be a man willing to answer and help in any way he can. Always very passionate and loved Mickey Mantle for sure! We lost touch years ago, I honestly don't remember the last time we corresponded. I see him posting here all the time and fondly recall how he really got me into collecting graded vintage, and pointed me in a direction I use to this day.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Balt ruth…t206 Wagner…thats it!

Thanks. Not being a card guy, it just took me by surprise when this card seemingly all of a sudden became the first to hit this stratospheric level. But with so many experts here not surprised at all, I guess it must have been more or less predictable. Great card, great grade, great iconic player, great hobby history and backstory, great time for the market, and there you have it. Didn't I read there are several 10s out there, what happens when the first one of those pops up in an auction?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Thanks. Not being a card guy, it just took me by surprise when this card seemingly all of a sudden became the first to hit this stratospheric level. But with so many experts here not surprised at all, I guess it must have been more or less predictable. Great card, great grade, great iconic player, great hobby history and backstory, great time for the market, and there you have it. Didn't I read there are several 10s out there, what happens when the first one of those pops up in an auction?

It would not surprise me if egos played a role in it going this high. For guys who can easily afford this even at that stratospheric level, it may have been worth the money just to win.