Would you buy a high end (10k) raw card?

[Casey2296]

Yes, but only if we can make the exchange in person, on a stormy night, in an abandoned warehouse somewhere in Cleveland...

Like Ryan said, if the parties involved are known, honest, and have integrity, sounds like a fun deal to me.

[Carter08]

Fraudsters are very sophisticated and technology at their disposal is only getting better. I think the only way someone does a deal on a raw card at that price and feels comfortable doing it is if he or she is confident in it but is also getting it at what is perceived to be a nice discount from what the cost would be slabbed. Obviously the older the card the better. Harder to fake 100 years old than it is to fake 40 years old.

[brunswickreeves]

Anything of that value, the seller should be so confident it will pass grading for number or authenticity they offer a 30 day return. Conversely, the buyer should be so skeptical it is not authentic, they should send it in for expedited grading. If passes, win-win. If doesn't, can return to seller, no harm no foul.

[Snapolit1]

Would you trust buying a house on your own eyeball examination and decline the services of a professional home inspector?

Would you buy an expensive car and trust your own personal examination and decline reviewing the car fax report?

Would you buy a franchise from someone and just examine the books yourself, or would you hire a professional accountant who does it for a living?

There are people on the board of who are 100% certain of their own powers to avoid fraud. I am not one of them.

Twice in the last decade I have bought counterfeit items from auction houses that are held in the highest esteem on this board. Honest mistakes that were fixed but still mistakes.

[ullmandds]

When you've been engrossed in a hobby you are passionate about for 40 years you develop expertise. Sadly with the mass slabbing of cards fewer and fewer people...especially those just entering the hobby in the last 20 years will never hold raw cards in their hands. They will never feel the nuances of varying paper/cardboard stock. They put their trust blindly in minimum wage employees at the grading companies. It's comical to me the attitude that all cards of value should be in slabs and if not they can't be real?

So anyway...per mikes request...here are my purchases. Both from EBAY...1 from a long time dealer/seller...the another from a widow.

The first was a grouping of 5 blue bird babe ruth cards. When I first saw the listing I thought...how crazy...to be selling all 5 together. Seller claimed these were acquired from the "find" of blue birds in the 80's I believe. Prior to this "find" this issue was virtually unknown to the hobby...and likely part of the reason they did not command much respect until the last few years.

It was a BIN...actually a fairly reasonable BIN...but I made an offer...and it was accepted.

The other I heard of through a facebook group. Someone posted questioning the authenticity of a raw E95 Wagner on ebay. I checked it out...it looked grreat to me...so I jumped on it. I then emailed the seller and asked if she had others. She had 2/3 sets of e93/e95 plus a smattering of a few dozen other random cards. I made a deal with her for all of it. She also "threw" in a bunch of other cards inclusing t205 cobb/johnson and a 33 gehrig.

I was nervous as hell waiting for all of these cards to arrive. When I had them in hand I knew they were all legit.

My plan was to sell most and keep a few...which I did!

[Johnny630]

PSA and SGC are loving this post, Cha-Ching Money Making/Printing Machines!! Love it!

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA and SGC are loving this post, Cha-Ching Money Making/Printing Machines!! Love it!

Indeed +1.

OP's question is loaded. This forum, WW2 and older, is about nothing but graded cards and investments. This forum is the internet's country club for high-end, big money, graded card investors.

[bobbyw8469]

Probably not. I bought a $4,000 Satchell Paige rookie off Ebay around 10 years old. Wound up being fake. Just too much risk with raw cards.

[horzverti]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

When you've been engrossed in a hobby you are passionate about for 40 years you develop expertise. Sadly with the mass slabbing of cards fewer and fewer people...especially those just entering the hobby in the last 20 years will never hold raw cards in their hands. They will never feel the nuances of varying paper/cardboard stock. They put their trust blindly in minimum wage employees at the grading companies. It's comical to me the attitude that all cards of value should be in slabs and if not they can't be real?

This, x10. I consider this forum to be the best gathering spot for the most knowledgeable collectors in our great hobby. I am surprised how many members would pass on a raw high $ card out of fear of it not being authentic. You have the knowledge. You should use it to your advantage. There are always new collections coming out of long storage. If you are one of the lucky ones who get the opportunity to buy these gems, would you pass on these just because they’re not graded?

[Lobo Aullando]

A part of this whole thing is analogous to poker, though. Don't play at stakes you're not comfortable at.

Personally, I have zero problem taking a flyer at $100, am spending a few minutes under magnification at $500, and doing a full checkdown over $1000. If my income and/or situation-specific knowledge were greater, then those amounts would obviously go up. Me personally on a $10k card? I can't afford to lose $8k 20% of the time – pick whatever reasonable numbers here, it'll still be enough for a pleasant vacation – so another opinion is beneficial. I can still upgrade with miles if I want.

Maybe I'm just fleshing this out a bit more, but I definitely use my knowledge and have benefited plenty in the $50-200 range.

Originally Posted by horzverti

This, x10. I consider this forum to be the best gathering spot for the most knowledgeable collectors in our great hobby. I am surprised how many members would pass on a raw high $ card out of fear of it not being authentic. You have the knowledge. You should use it to your advantage. There are always new collections coming out of long storage. If you are one of the lucky ones who get the opportunity to buy these gems, would you pass on these just because they’re not graded?

Disclaimer: Any reference to vacations in other posts made in temporal proximity to this post is purely coincidence and has no cash value, is subject to the laws of Delaware, and is not redeemable for prizes.

[refz]

No, I am not in that tier and more than likely never will be… besides if it was a high ticket card it would have to hold its value at altered but authentic at 10k.

[Luke]

I basically feel the same as Ryan H above. I would definitely buy a lower grade rare card if I trusted the seller. For something like a common backed Cobb, I'd still buy it at the right price but it would center more on my level of confidence in what the graders would say. I trust myself on t206s more than any grader at PSA or SGC, but you are still at their mercy if you want to eventually sell the card.

[Exhibitman]

Depends on the seller and the circumstances and what the goal is.

From a reputable dealer I know personally, I would do it remotely. Brian Marcy at Scottsdale, for example, no problem. I know he is good for it. Otherwise, I would need a good look at the card in person.

As for determining whether a card is genuine, as Pete said, after decades of this many of us have developed expertise in our preferred collecting fields. I am probably better at authenticating an Exhibit card than anyone a TPG or AH would hand it to. If I get a walk-in at a show and I can get a good look at the card in hand, I am just fine with it.

Now, if the goal is a specific TPG grade, that I would not do absent a guarantee from a reputable seller.

The most difficult thing is when the item itself is really obscure. That happens in boxing, soccer and other sports more than baseball. I am approached from time to time with boxing card sellers who have uncatalogued cards. In that situation, all you can really do is rely on decent examination tools (black light, microscope) to detect anachronisms and make a judgment call if the card seems to be right for the purported age. Even then, you might never find out what it is. There is going to be a big group of newly-discovered vintage Latin American boxing issues in an upcoming Heritage auction. I've seen a few and they are consistent with the era and origin attributed to them, but it is still a leap of faith to buy those sorts of items.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Would you trust buying a house on your own eyeball examination and decline the services of a professional home inspector?

Would you buy an expensive car and trust your own personal examination and decline reviewing the car fax report?

Would you buy a franchise from someone and just examine the books yourself, or would you hire a professional accountant who does it for a living?

There are people on the board of who are 100% certain of their own powers to avoid fraud. I am not one of them.

Twice in the last decade I have bought counterfeit items from auction houses that are held in the highest esteem on this board. Honest mistakes that were fixed but still mistakes.

This would make some sense, if the graders had a track record better than they have. From thousands of publicly outed trimmed cards to complete fakes to gift grades to being so incompetent they have to shut down their auto grading entirely, they do not have this track record. How is an unknown grader at PSA or SGC better able to evaluate? If one is dropping $10K, and one can’t authenticate items yourself, one shouldn’t be buying that item. That’s a lot of money for someone who doesn’t know that set to spend.

Caveat emptor. One can learn the subject and evaluate themselves, or outsource it to companies with long records of corruption and/or incompetence, frauds, fakes, gift grades and alterations. I don’t see the later as preferable. One should evaluate the card, not rely on what kind of plastic it is in.

[jingram058]

Sigh...I think it's time for me to go on vacation, yet again.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by G1911

This would make some sense, if the graders had a track record better than they have. From thousands of publicly outed trimmed cards to complete fakes to gift grades to being so incompetent they have to shut down their auto grading entirely, they do not have this track record. How is an unknown grader at PSA or SGC better able to evaluate? If one is dropping $10K, and one can’t authenticate items yourself, one shouldn’t be buying that item. That’s a lot of money for someone who doesn’t know that set to spend.

Caveat emptor. One can learn the subject and evaluate themselves, or outsource it to companies with long records of corruption and/or incompetence, frauds, fakes, gift grades and alterations. I don’t see the later as preferable. One should evaluate the card, not rely on what kind of plastic it is in.

I think it’s less about trusting that the grader knows more than you do. I think it’s more about having a well heeled company involved that you can turn to and hopefully get money from in the event something goes wrong. That’s the protection I see in a slab on a big card. Turns out to be fake and they should owe you. Maybe they fine print what they do to try to escape this but my understanding from a different thread is they make you whole.