The Best Pitcher in Baseball Is?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I don't think people forget him at all; he just pitched less than 1,300 innings. Hard to compete with Maddux, Johnson, Seaver etc. when they hurled well over triple the innings.

The debate about the value of the closer will never be settled, but there is a colorable argument that even the best of them -- Rivera -- is vastly overrated in the court of public opinion.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The debate about the value of the closer will never be settled, but there is a colorable argument that even the best of them -- Rivera -- is vastly overrated in the court of public opinion.

That is an argument I personally tend to agree with, but even giving as much possible credit to the role of the closer as possible, heavily weighting specific innings, giving and every single benefit of the doubt to Rivera and then adding some random points to him just because, I still cannot see how one can possibly come to the conclusion that Rivera produced more value than the very best starters of his time.

Removing Clemens is fair game; if you cancel out his steroid years that appear to have started with the Blue Jays as I recall, he's no longer the #1. Slotting Mariano into his place makes no sense when guys who pitched, 4,000, 5,000 innings at a very, very high level are available to choose instead.

[gonefishin]

No way I'm saying Rivera should replace anyone, I'm just saying he shouldn't be forgotten. There have been a lot of great ones that have taken the mound since 1980. When the dust settles and his career comes to an end, I still think Verlander will be ranked among the best of all time.

I also think Randy Johnson should receive extra credit for exploding the sea gull or whatever it was. How many pitchers have done that trick!

Clemons, due to his own actions, has joined the ranks of those that have posted some of the best performances of all time but will never see the Hall of Fame while they are still alive. I wonder how he explained the situation to his son Kacy, who is now of course a major league player. Unfortunate situation for everyone.

[G1911]

Johnson vaporizing the seagull in front of Calvin Murray was a classic.

Clemens election seems almost inevitable at this point to me. With David Ortiz being exempted because people like him, Bonds and Clemens will almost certainly be put in by the committees at some point. I’m agnostic on whether the roiders should get in, but the double standards will be difficult to defend over the years and as there is no process for removal, it will be easier to induct the roiders. Besides, they have to drive revenue and the exclusions will hurt the bottom line. Cutting out half of a generations stars will hurt attendance and induction ceremony profit too much.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Johnson vaporizing the seagull in front of Calvin Murray was a classic.

Clemens election seems almost inevitable at this point to me. With David Ortiz being exempted because people like him, Bonds and Clemens will almost certainly be put in by the committees at some point. I’m agnostic on whether the roiders should get in, but the double standards will be difficult to defend over the years and as there is no process for removal, it will be easier to induct the roiders. Besides, they have to drive revenue and the exclusions will hurt the bottom line. Cutting out half of a generations stars will hurt attendance and induction ceremony profit too much.

The way it will end up, IMO, is Clemens Bonds and likely McGwire eventually will get in but Sosa and Palmeiro, never. Not sure that is fair on the numbers.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The way it will end up, IMO, is Clemens Bonds and likely McGwire eventually will get in but Sosa and Palmeiro, never. Not sure that is fair on the numbers.

I suspect this is correct. Perhaps I am a bit more cynical but after Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, I think it will come down to a popularity contest of who will drive revenue. Sosa has a chance, Palmeiro unlikely though he is obviously deserving (if roiders are let in).

I’m more okay with giving a pass to these guys than to the guys who got busted long after the rule was established. McGwire I find especially sympathetic; he was done around the time it became a controversy and my understanding is he didn’t really actually break any rule. He didn’t see to have any idea when he casually admitted to it that it was going to spark such a huge controversy and changes to the game. Bonds and Clemens started using before the rules but probably kept using as the controversy gained steam and it became a “don’t do that”.

[gonefishin]

Verlander is still burning it up - making a run again for the Cy Young this year. As of today, lowest ERA @ 1.87 (1st), tie for most wins (16), .85 WHIP (1st)