Biggest MVP snubs ever

[packs]

I used WAR to point out Clemens wasn't the best pitcher in the league but he won not only the Cy Young but also the MVP.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I used WAR to point out Clemens wasn't the best pitcher in the league but he won not only the Cy Young but also the MVP.

See the contradiction? I’d say Clemens was the best pitcher in the league that year. If we treat WAR as the arbiter, as you are here, then Mattingly doesn’t deserve the MVP either and Clemens was a better choice than him. By your standard here Higuera was robbed, not Mattingly who was 5th.

[G1911]

They did not like to do repeat winners in the early days, though Gehrig did end up getting a second. This is a big part of why guys like him and Ruth didn’t win every year. The approach was very different in the early 30’s and I think that should not be forgotten.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

See the contradiction? I’d say Clemens was the best pitcher in the league that year. If we treat WAR as the arbiter, as you are here, then Mattingly doesn’t deserve the MVP either and Clemens was a better choice than him. By your standard here Higuera was robbed, not Mattingly who was 5th.

Uh no. When I compared Higuera to Clemens it was pitcher to pitcher. I don’t believe a pitcher should ever win MVP unless he does something incredible, which I don’t think Clemens did.

It’s also my opinion and I posted what I thought because it’s what I think. It’s not always an invitation for you to give your opinion on my own.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Uh no. When I compared Higuera to Clemens it was pitcher to pitcher. I don’t believe a pitcher should ever win MVP unless he does something incredible, which I don’t think Clemens did.

It’s also my opinion and I posted what I thought because it’s what I think. It’s not always an invitation for you to give your opinion on my own.

So WAR is to compare and rank only pitchers. Makes sense.

Sir, I do not think you understand how a message board works.

[packs]

I compared two pitchers because they were both up for the Cy Young.

I don’t think you understand my opinions don’t need to pass your smell test. You aren’t the arbiter of anything, to use your phrasing.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I compared two pitchers because they were both up for the Cy Young.

I don’t think you understand my opinions don’t need to pass your smell test. You aren’t the arbiter of anything, to use your phrasing.

But it is improper to compare 2 players up for the MVP using the same exact metric? Surely you can step back and see why that doesn’t make much sense.

Never claimed to be the arbiter. Your opinions do not need to pass my ‘smell test’. I am allowed to comment, just as you are and do. Try harder.

[cgjackson222]

Under 10 posts in and we are already bickering.

Really had high hopes that this would be a bicker-free thread, but alas.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

But it is improper to compare 2 players up for the MVP using the same exact metric? Surely you can step back and see why that doesn’t make much sense.

Never claimed to be the arbiter. Your opinions do not need to pass my ‘smell test’. I am allowed to comment, just as you are and do. Try harder.

I was talking about the Cy Young. It’s an award that typically goes to the “best” pitcher. Statistically , Clemens wasn’t the best pitcher.

The V in MVP stands for value. It can’t be determined with one stat. I didn’t mention WAR in any context.

You’re the only one using WAR to determine who should win MVP.

[rats60]

George Brett in 1985.

Brett . 335/.436/.585 OPS + 179
Mattingly .324/.371/.567 OPS + 156

Brett led his team to a 1st place finish. Brett also played a premium position on defense, providing positive value and winning a gold glove. Mattingly wasn't even the best player on the 2nd place Yankees. He drove in 145 runs because Rickey Henderson was always in scoring position ahead of him, .419 OBP 80 SB and 146 runs. Wade Boggs also had a better season and should have finished ahead of Mattingly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Arod losing to Juan Gonzalez in 1996? Hornsby losing to Dazzy Vance the year he hit .424?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Arod losing to Juan Gonzalez in 1996? Hornsby losing to Dazzy Vance the year he hit .424?

Arod and others losing to Juan Gonzalez in 1998 as well. Juan must have been a great guy and pal to the voters.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Arod and others losing to Juan Gonzalez in 1998 as well. Juan must have been a great guy and pal to the voters.

In the mid 90s you could have just punched Juan Gonz' ticket to the Hall.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by rats60

George Brett in 1985.

Brett . 335/.436/.585 OPS + 179
Mattingly .324/.371/.567 OPS + 156

Brett led his team to a 1st place finish. Brett also played a premium position on defense, providing positive value and winning a gold glove. Mattingly wasn't even the best player on the 2nd place Yankees. He drove in 145 runs because Rickey Henderson was always in scoring position ahead of him, .419 OBP 80 SB and 146 runs. Wade Boggs also had a better season and should have finished ahead of Mattingly.

There are many great examples but I tend to agree that George Brett was the most deserving that Mattingly That Year

HOWEVER, I think that Ricky Henderson was more deserving that year.
He had .314/.419/.516 but he had 24 Home Runs, 72 RBI's, 146 Runs 80 Stolen Bases
But Brett and Donnie both put up great years so it is hard to argue with any of them

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

There are many great examples but I tend to agree that George Brett was the most deserving that Mattingly That Year

HOWEVER, I think that Ricky Henderson was more deserving that year.
He had .314/.419/.516 but he had 24 Home Runs, 72 RBI's, 146 Runs 80 Stolen Bases
But Brett and Donnie both put up great years so it is hard to argue with any of them

Yeah, I think Rickey deserved it with his 9.9 WAR and his 146 runs (in only 143 games), much of which was because of his 80 steals (and only 10 caught). Note that this was tied for his career high in WAR with the lone season he did win MVP (1990).

I think Wade Boggs would be my #2 in 1985 as he led the league in Avg .368 and OBP with .450 and his absurd 240 hits. His WAR of 9.1 was higher than Brett (8.3) and Mattingly (6.5). 1985 was arguably Boggs' best year.