Grading Guarantees - Are They For Real???

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BobC

John,

Please don't despair and put my thoughts and ideas down just because it is unlikely they will ever happen. We have to have hope, right?

I'm not putting your ideas down. I was explaining why things are the way they are, which it was not clear to me from your statements that you understood. If I offended you, my apologies; this is the problem with web forums over conversations and inflection of tones. I assure you that was not my intent.

But you saying that having a flat grading fee will inundate TPGs with fakes is just weird, because even with variable fees, they still got inundated during the pandemic.

They got inundated during the early pandemic with ultra modern, and cards currently worth less than most people deem reasonable to grade. I honestly don't think the fakes thing is a huge deal, I was just illustrating that as an example of why higher fees would make sense to them. I'll give you that. If SGC charges 30 bucks to grade everything from a 2022 Topps parallel to a scarce Ruth E card, then so be it. I'm sure they'd accept more of their fair share of badly faked '52 Mantles for at least a time before tiring of it.

And as for charging more fees for things like insurance and damage, my experience has always been that when someone goes up against someone with insurance, and wins, they end up getting a check from the insurance company. In all the cases I've ever heard about where someone has gone back against a TPG for an error or damage, etc., I've never heard anyone ever say they got a check from the TPG's insurance company to cover the loss/damage. Instead, they always seem to say it was the TPG that just sent them a check.

Semantics. I meant that someone, whether the insurance company or the TPG themselves - is liable for such payouts. If I'm the submitter requesting compensation for damage or something of that nature, I don't really care who is writing me the check. I don't know about fees having anything to do with double insurance or anything down to that level of detail. It plays into the justification for higher fees, but it's not the whole ball of wax. They are charging higher fees for higher valued items - as others have pointed out - because market forces allow them to.

Again, I'm on your side. And like you I wish many things were different and better.

Ok, so you are more of an idealist, and I am more of a realist at the bitter old age of 45. But yeah, I'm with you. Things as they are suck, and much professional grading anymore I think is a sham / ripoff for what it is, especially for true collectors who are keeping a majority of their submissions and not simply flipping them, or at least planning to sell more or less immediately. I learned how to grade in the early 1990's. Yes, standards fluctuate, but I'm more than capable of keeping up and knowing at least what "range" my cards are in. I guess I just have little hope that the current model will ever substantially change, because the powers that be have setup the financial model and cash flow for things to continue working as they are. To the idealist perspective, yes - we should demand better and force change. But who realistically is going to do that now? Who has the financial incentive to? What percentage of big wheel collectors with high valued vintage material are NOT already more or less in bed with PSA - if not because they want to, but because their financial interests in a pile of impressive slabs more or less demand it? We aren't covering new ground here. Many of these complaints, or at least the flavors of them have been around for 2 decades plus now. Yet PSA continues to be a cash gravy train with no end in sight, and their business forecasts all still proclaim the sky to be the limit. You'll forgive me for being less than an optimist. I'm happy sitting here with my raw, flawed cards for a fraction of the price.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'm not putting your ideas down. I was explaining why things are the way they are, which it was not clear to me from your statements that you understood. If I offended you, my apologies; this is the problem with web forums over conversations and inflection of tones. I assure you that was not my intent.



They got inundated during the early pandemic with ultra modern, and cards currently worth less than most people deem reasonable to grade. I honestly don't think the fakes thing is a huge deal, I was just illustrating that as an example of why higher fees would make sense to them. I'll give you that. If SGC charges 30 bucks to grade everything from a 2022 Topps parallel to a scarce Ruth E card, then so be it. I'm sure they'd accept more of their fair share of badly faked '52 Mantles for at least a time before tiring of it.



Semantics. I meant that someone, whether the insurance company or the TPG themselves - is liable for such payouts. If I'm the submitter requesting compensation for damage or something of that nature, I don't really care who is writing me the check. I don't know about fees having anything to do with double insurance or anything down to that level of detail. It plays into the justification for higher fees, but it's not the whole ball of wax. They are charging higher fees for higher valued items - as others have pointed out - because market forces allow them to.



Ok, so you are more of an idealist, and I am more of a realist at the bitter old age of 45. But yeah, I'm with you. Things as they are suck, and much professional grading anymore I think is a sham / ripoff for what it is, especially for true collectors who are keeping a majority of their submissions and not simply flipping them, or at least planning to sell more or less immediately. I learned how to grade in the early 1990's. Yes, standards fluctuate, but I'm more than capable of keeping up and knowing at least what "range" my cards are in. I guess I just have little hope that the current model will ever substantially change, because the powers that be have setup the financial model and cash flow for things to continue working as they are. To the idealist perspective, yes - we should demand better and force change. But who realistically is going to do that now? Who has the financial incentive to? What percentage of big wheel collectors with high valued vintage material are NOT already more or less in bed with PSA - if not because they want to, but because their financial interests in a pile of impressive slabs more or less demand it? We aren't covering new ground here. Many of these complaints, or at least the flavors of them have been around for 2 decades plus now. Yet PSA continues to be a cash gravy train with no end in sight, and their business forecasts all still proclaim the sky to be the limit. You'll forgive me for being less than an optimist. I'm happy sitting here with my raw, flawed cards for a fraction of the price.

LOL

John,

Not offended at all, just figured you may have misunderstood me and where I was coming from. I've been involved in all sorts of businesses over the last 40-50 years, and know exactly why the TPGs did what they are doing. If I was working for/with one of them, I would probably advise them to do the exact same or similar things they have done. I'm just pointing out how from an independent and unbiased standpoint, which is supposedly where they are paid to operate from, they aren't truly doing and providing what they are supposed to for the hobby. I'm really not being an idealist, just stating given facts.

The way these TPGs operate with such grading fees based on underlying value, instead of basing it on the actual work they perform, is absolutely indicative of biased opinions with obvious potential conflicts-of-interest. Add to that the ability of owners/employees of TPGs to have the companies they own and/or work for also grade cards for them, and the lack of transparency and information regarding their grading standards and processes that they convey to the hobby/collecting public, and the fault lies with all of us in the hobby for letting them get away with it.

The biggest problem is that Net54 types are an extremely small part of the overall hobby, and the influence of vintage, especially pre-war baseball, collectors in the overall hobby is minimal at best. The TPGs get headlines for grading T206 Wagner and '52 Topps Mantle cards, but they are really making their money off all the modern, Pokemon, and other cards out there being graded. If you don't believe me, go look up the numbers of cards that some TPGs supposedly grade in a month nowadays. Now go look at the TPG population reports for pre-war cards and start adding them all up. Compare those numbers to the number of cards these TPGs are grading these days and you'll quickly realize that pre-war baseball is not driving their profit margins. LOL

So how much do you think the TPGs really care about pre-war baseball from a purely business standpoint? If they are being truly honest with the collecting public, I'll bet that aside from the publicity aspect and not wanting to tick off major AHs and some of the more well-to-do collectors that are into pre-war baseball, probably not nearly as much as an average Net54 member would think.

[jchcollins]

Bob, all good points. And I would agree that modern is definitely driving the TPG's right now. As I've alluded, just for me personally at some point last year I had to make the call that slabs were not a must have for my ongoing collection, just due to all the issues I perceived. Some were some of the things we've been talking about here. Some were more just "me" things, i.e. SGC using faulty inserts with jagged plastic edges. At the end of the day I determined this was not actually hurting cards but it bugged the crap out of me. I digress... But given the amount of cards I had busted for problems either with the slabs or other things to do with the grading, I decided at least for cards that I can buy in person, I trust myself and some of the folks I do business with enough to make an evaluation myself and buy a raw card. Even expensive ones, for me say a Mantle or other nice 50's and 60's stars. When buying cards I cannot inspect in my hands first, like on eBay or even once here on the BST - I will admit a preference for a nice looking slab to make sure of what I'm getting ballpark-wise for condition. As much as my earlier posts may have sounded otherwise, PSA and SGC still do get a majority of pure technical grading correct still. Maybe not 90%, maybe not 80% - but 65%-ish on vintage? Eh, ok I can buy that. It's not perfect but if I can see a good scan and agree yes, that PSA 5 looks like a 5 - then I'm usually good. I rarely have problems with cards like that once in hand.

Good conversation. I do of course hope at the end of the day that the TPG's can evolve and change, and maybe that even some of the new entrants since the bubble here over the last 3 years can make some waves eventually and perhaps become sleeper favorites. That's kind of how SGC evolved in the early 2000's...

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Bob, all good points. And I would agree that modern is definitely driving the TPG's right now. As I've alluded, just for me personally at some point last year I had to make the call that slabs were not a must have for my ongoing collection, just due to all the issues I perceived. Some were some of the things we've been talking about here. Some were more just "me" things, i.e. SGC using faulty inserts with jagged plastic edges. At the end of the day I determined this was not actually hurting cards but it bugged the crap out of me. I digress... But given the amount of cards I had busted for problems either with the slabs or other things to do with the grading, I decided at least for cards that I can buy in person, I trust myself and some of the folks I do business with enough to make an evaluation myself and buy a raw card. Even expensive ones, for me say a Mantle or other nice 50's and 60's stars. When buying cards I cannot inspect in my hands first, like on eBay or even once here on the BST - I will admit a preference for a nice looking slab to make sure of what I'm getting ballpark-wise for condition. As much as my earlier posts may have sounded otherwise, PSA and SGC still do get a majority of pure technical grading correct still. Maybe not 90%, maybe not 80% - but 65%-ish on vintage? Eh, ok I can buy that. It's not perfect but if I can see a good scan and agree yes, that PSA 5 looks like a 5 - then I'm usually good. I rarely have problems with cards like that once in hand.

Good conversation. I do of course hope at the end of the day that the TPG's can evolve and change, and maybe that even some of the new entrants since the bubble here over the last 3 years can make some waves eventually and perhaps become sleeper favorites. That's kind of how SGC evolved in the early 2000's...

John,

I'm like you and not necessarily crazy about graded cards. I've only submitted cards up for grading once in all my years. And that was for some raw, and seriously trimmed/damaged, Number 7 and Diamond S Cigar cards that I had acquired raw. Wanted to make sure they were authentic, and also protect them from further wear/damage. Got them all graded as Authentic by SGC, and was very happy for that. The SGC holders really make them look a lot better than if just raw as well.

Otherwise, I don't look to buy graded cards. But when it comes to pre-war cards, many times you can't really find them for sale unless they are already graded. As long as I can find them for a price that is agreeable to me, I'll grab a graded card when it becomes available. Unlike you though, if I buy something graded, I just leave it that way. I figure that whatever I paid for a graded card also includes the cost of grading it built into the purchase price. So to me, breaking the card out of the holder is like flushing money down the toilet. Like a lot of people say, even though I don't really have a preference for graded cards, if I ever did have to sell some, or when I leave them to my family when I pass, it is usually much easier (and usually more profitable) to sell them if you have them graded. So why buy a graded card and break it out of the holder, only to have to someday down the road end up paying someone else to grade it again for your or your heirs.

I usually end up putting my cards in folders, so for display purposes I found it easier to simply make front and back color copies of my graded cards that I then cut out and insert into my binder pages with the regular cards in their sets. I can then just store the graded cards in separate boxes made for storing graded cards. It is fun and enjoyable to occasionally go through the binders, or just open up a random box of graded cards and flip through them to remind myself of what I have.

Like you, I don't need a TPG to tell me if a card looks nice or not. I'm mostly just interested in making sure an item is authentic, and I can take it from there. And yes, great conversation and discussion.