Grading Guarantees - Are They For Real???

swarmee · #1 07-26-2022, 01:59 PM

Yeah, when it's not egregious, they likely just "re-affirm" the grade. But when it's determined to be trimmed with solid photographic evidence, they sometimes will. I'm guessing they also did it with the two Clemente or Mays cards that were PSA 7s with pinholes that weren't seen by their grader.

There are times where they claim that the original grade was entered in error, and then don't pay out. This happened last year with the 70/30 off-centered Montana RCs they just graded as 10s. They just recalled them and re-slabbed them as 6s or so. If it's a mechanical error, it doesn't fall under the grade guarantee. But only they know if it truly was an error or the original grade assigned.

glchen · #2 07-26-2022, 03:43 PM

In my experience, the grading guarantees are for real. I've purchased a card that SGC graded a 3 (VG). In the auction, the back scan wasn't clear, and when I received it, there was scrapbook residue on back. I sent it back to SGC, and it came back at 1.5 (Fair). SGC refunded me with a check and some grading credits which I thought was very fair, and I was very satisfied with.

For Beckett, they holdered a photo that was determined to be counterfeit. They sent me a check to fully compensate me for this. Again, I thought they were very fair and i was very satisfied with the final settlement.

I haven't tried PSA before, so no experience there.

Carter08 · #3 07-26-2022, 04:22 PM

I�m not perfectly on topic here but it�s related. I have a friend that has a small but nice collection. He sent in a card 49 bowman he thought was mint and paid the psa premium of 2k for services on a card with a declared value under 49k. Card came back a psa 2, probably justified. Psa won�t issue a refund of any of the expenses or even meet him halfway and drop the price to 1k for cards with a declared value under 29k. It seems tough that psa would make you declare a value and be bound to it when their grading is what helps dictate the value so to speak. At any rate, would like to help this vent out if anyone has any experience on this. Psa customer service at least one time said no dice.

oldjudge · #4 07-26-2022, 04:50 PM

My sense it is very similar to the guarantee �If you are unhappy send back the unused portion of our product and we will send back the unused portion of your money�.

BobC · #5 07-26-2022, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

I�m not perfectly on topic here but it�s related. I have a friend that has a small but nice collection. He sent in a card 49 bowman he thought was mint and paid the psa premium of 2k for services on a card with a declared value under 49k. Card came back a psa 2, probably justified. Psa won�t issue a refund of any of the expenses or even meet him halfway and drop the price to 1k for cards with a declared value under 29k. It seems tough that psa would make you declare a value and be bound to it when their grading is what helps dictate the value so to speak. At any rate, would like to help this vent out if anyone has any experience on this. Psa customer service at least one time said no dice.

And this exactly one of the biggest problems and issues all along with TPGs and their opinions. They are NOT independent in the giving of their opinions on the grade of cards. There should be absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in the grading standards and way a '52 Topps Mantle card is examined and graded, and the way an '89 Topps Gregg Jefferies rookie card is examined and graded. So why should there be any difference in the grading fees?????

Any TPG charging such varying and graduated fees is automatically biased, and subject to a conflict-of -interest in their grading services. And this IS NOT DEBATABLE, IT IS A FACT!!!!! Any person/party/company being trusted and hired for their giving of an "opinion" should be totally independent, in both fact, AND appearance. All TPGs should follow a single and accepted set of grading standards, set by a majority of people in the hobby and not independently by each TPG to suit their own whims, that are unchanging and consistently applied, and further supported by total transparency as to why a card is graded as it is. And all the TPGs should be subject to ongoing peer review of their work by outside parties, with consequences for failing to accurately, and without bias and conflict-of-interest, do what they get paid to do. Give accurate, honest, and unbiased opinions on the grade of cards.

So how can anyone trust the "opinion" given by any person/party/company as to a card's grade that is not totally independent, unbiased, and without an obvious conflict-of-interest? The very simple and accurate answer is.........you actually can't!!!!!

jchcollins · #6 07-26-2022, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

So why should there be any difference in the grading fees?????

If there were no difference in the grading fees, then PSA and SGC would be inundated with thousands of fake T206 Wagners, Cobbs, Goudey Ruths, and '52 Mantles on a weekly basis and would waste countless hours labeling such cards "? Auth" and sending them back to people who said "Well, they told me I should have it graded" or scam artists hoping for a slim chance a grader would make a huge mistake.

As for the rest - yes, grading companies are biased, use subjectivity in judgement, and make many decisions on a daily basis which smack with conflict of interest or other questionable integrity issues. But we have paid them well for doing that for a generation at least now. The hobby was not perfect before grading, and despite the numerous hobby "ills" that grading was ostensibly designed to solve - it's certainly not perfect with them in the picture now. Cost of doing business. "Buy the card not the grade" people have already moved on in most cases, IMO.

BobC · #7 07-27-2022, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

If there were no difference in the grading fees, then PSA and SGC would be inundated with thousands of fake T206 Wagners, Cobbs, Goudey Ruths, and '52 Mantles on a weekly basis and would waste countless hours labeling such cards "? Auth" and sending them back to people who said "Well, they told me I should have it graded" or scam artists hoping for a slim chance a grader would make a huge mistake.

As for the rest - yes, grading companies are biased, use subjectivity in judgement, and make many decisions on a daily basis which smack with conflict of interest or other questionable integrity issues. But we have paid them well for doing that for a generation at least now. The hobby was not perfect before grading, and despite the numerous hobby "ills" that grading was ostensibly designed to solve - it's certainly not perfect with them in the picture now. Cost of doing business. "Buy the card not the grade" people have already moved on in most cases, IMO.

What are you talking about? So TPGs get inundated by thousands of fake cards, which if they are the experts they claim to be, they quickly note and see they are fake, return them ungraded as such, and oh yes, keep the grading fees for all those fake cards as well. They still get paid for looking at all the fakes, so why would they care? What scares me more is the possibility that a TPG would go ahead and declare a fake as authentic, so the value goes up, and they can charge more fees for grading it as a result. If the TPGs are actually good at doing their job and determining fakes, the fraudsters and scammers would quickly quit wasting money trying to get fakes authenticated as real, and stop submitting so many obvious fakes to them for grading.

And yes, am well aware that the TPGs have taken over the industry and the "horses are out of the barn", so to speak, and people in the hobby itself will likely never get control of the grading standards back from the TPGs and be able to force them to use a single, consistent set of standards, be transparent and totally unbiased in what they do, and submit to ongoing independent review of their work. But if all that ever did happen, as part of the independent oversight and review process, a governing hobby body could also have the TPGs getting inundated by fakes from submitters make the names/identities of those that continually kept trying to get fakes authenticated made public, so the hobby community was fully aware of who these scammers and fraudsters are.

I fully agree with you on "buy the card, and not the holder", but Net54 I think has a much higher and experienced level of collector, at least in regard to pre-war/vintage cards, and we by no means represent or make up a majority of the collector community out there. As such, a lot of collectors probably aren't as savvy as many of the members on here are. Plus, I think there may be a lot more investors/flippers out there than actual collectors nowadays. They know a graded card almost always sells for more than a raw card, and certain TPG graded cards almost always seem to sell for more than other TPG comparably graded cards. And for them, it seems to be all about the holder as dealers/sellers/AHs rely on and push those graded cards with their online sales. Let's face it, the original start and subsequent growth/demand of graded cards was a lot in response to the advent of online selling and the fact that people, especially those newer to and not as experienced yet, didn't actually get to personally see and handle cards they had already paid for, until they actually got delivered to them. The idea of an independent, third-party grader/authenticator made the idea of mail order/remote/online selling more appealing to those buying blindly. It eased their fears of getting ripped off by scammers and crooks. The TPGs, AHs, and sellers/dealers have since taken the TPG grading concept and so ingrained it in our hobby, and elevated it to a seeming control of the hobby community, so it is not soon going away. And even though many like us here on Net54 still may not be so endeared to graded cards, we all realize the economic effect that grading has on card prices and values. And even if we intend to never sell our cards, we all know that a sudden financial crisis, or leaving them to family after we're gone, is probably best done by getting at least some of them graded first. The hobby has changed around us, whether we like it or not. And TPGs are at the heart of the start of that changing, and behind the push to where we are today.

jchcollins · #8 07-27-2022, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

What are you talking about?

I don't know, what are you talking about? In a theoretic perfect world on paper, yes, fees would be even across the board and TPG's would employ no bias and never make technical grading mistakes in a discipline that at the end of the day ties technical qualities to eye appeal (to make an evaluation which will be considered subjective by most people the cards are being returned to). You have some PSA 7's that look like garden variety 5's, and PSA 3's in some cases that due to a hidden flaw can present like PSA 8's. This is nothing new.

Since we don't live in that utopia, TPG's like other entities composed of humans are frail and faulty, and frequently make mistakes. Like other businesses, they also live in a world of economic reality - and know that since their product inherently boosts card values, especially those of marquee hobby icons like '52 Mantles and Nolan Ryan rookies or what have you - that they can charge more for the same service on such cards and because of the value proposition, people will still gladly pay it. They can also charge more to weed out submission of fakes, even if that submission would be temporary - though I kind of disagree with you on that point, even with all the information out there - how many stories do we still get of newbies coming on boards or on social media with an "Is this real" question on a Ruth or Mantle they found in Grandaddy's attic? They would still get a lot of those - all the time - and undoubtedly the value tier preventing such submissions is a benefit to them. Consider also the "stated value" required to be declared isn't so much for them to ponder how much to charge you to grade it, but for them to have a ballpark idea of how much to insure your card for on the brief (maybe longer...) time it is in their possession. They are taking a substantially larger risk in taking delivery of, storing, and then handling and grading a $10k card than they are a $100 one. And of course we all know that PSA never screws up and damages any cards in their possession, turns an 8 into a 4 via careless handling, or flat out loses stuff. Right? Ergo, they charge more money to grade more expensive cards. I would imagine nobody who collects likes this, but you can hardly be surprised by it or blame them from a business perspective.

Look, I'm frustrated with TPG's too. I largely prefer raw these days, and don't submit myself anymore because of this. I just think it's unrealistic to expect today's TPG's to make dramatic changes or improvements to address some of what you mentioned. It largely is what it is and is not going to change. Maybe if the hobby could have a sampling of very trusted individuals above reproach and create something like the Philatelic Society like you have in stamp collecting to oversee grading? But that's a pipe dream. I have a love-hate relationship, because I do love a properly graded card in a nice slab. But that's become so hit or miss these days, I try to spare myself the disappointment of that not happening if I submit myself anymore.

BobC · #9 07-26-2022, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

Yeah, when it's not egregious, they likely just "re-affirm" the grade. But when it's determined to be trimmed with solid photographic evidence, they sometimes will. I'm guessing they also did it with the two Clemente or Mays cards that were PSA 7s with pinholes that weren't seen by their grader.

There are times where they claim that the original grade was entered in error, and then don't pay out. This happened last year with the 70/30 off-centered Montana RCs they just graded as 10s. They just recalled them and re-slabbed them as 6s or so. If it's a mechanical error, it doesn't fall under the grade guarantee. But only they know if it truly was an error or the original grade assigned.

Whether the error is due to a mistake by a grader or a "mechanical" error, either way it still seems to me that it is an error by the grading company. What if someone had sold one of those "10"s to someone? Could/should a TPG have been able to blow off paying out a grade guarantee in that case? I would certainly hope not.

It sounds like in your case the TPG realized the error, and contacted the submitters to quickly correct the situation, correct? In that instance, I can see a TPG not paying anything to a submitter as they noted their mistake and corrected it. I would hope that if a "10" grade as opposed to a "6" grade resulted in a higher grading fee that the difference was returned to the submitter though. Otherwise, the person who submitted the card is really out nothing.

But as I said, if a card was sold to someone else that paid a price based on the grade given, mechanical error or not, the person that then owned the card should be fully entitled to a refund of the difference in value between a "10" and a "6", wouldn't you agree?

Quite frankly, if that did happen, I'm surprised that someone being informed by a TPG of such an error would not have gotten a friend or colleague to "buy" the card from them for a "10" price, and then direct the TPG to the new owner to deal with the error. Would love to hear what a TPG would say to the new owner in that case.

Leon · #10 07-27-2022, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

Yeah, when it's not egregious, they likely just "re-affirm" the grade. But when it's determined to be trimmed with solid photographic evidence, they sometimes will. I'm guessing they also did it with the two Clemente or Mays cards that were PSA 7s with pinholes that weren't seen by their grader.

There are times where they claim that the original grade was entered in error, and then don't pay out. This happened last year with the 70/30 off-centered Montana RCs they just graded as 10s. They just recalled them and re-slabbed them as 6s or so. If it's a mechanical error, it doesn't fall under the grade guarantee. But only they know if it truly was an error or the original grade assigned.

To me, if it was an error on the flip, it's an error anyway you slice it.
.

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