Gun ownership poll

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I love that the gun violence archive accurately breaks down numbers to help remove shadows of vagueness purposely left off most reports.

The listed instances of defensive use should be eye opening to those unfamiliar and that think the news item the other day is somehow an anomaly.

Those numbers are verboten to show by many.

Others may wonder why it is 19% more likely to have an accidental shooting and 94% more likely to be used in a suicide, than a DGU?

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Others may wonder why it is 19% more likely to have an accidental shooting and 94% more likely to be used in a suicide, than a DGU?

Well suicide seems obvious, not to be rude. If given the option and I am not in a correct state, I would prefer a painless path. That is no great statement however likely. I don't see too much relevance in gun suicide numbers as those are a mental health issue and would people be more pleased if they just died in a different more acceptable method? If gun ownership was related to suicide rates the United States would very logically be number one by a landslide, we are not even close as 2020 WHO information had us at 31st.

Accidental shooting you must remember is not likely a civilian shooting someone else. It is police collateral damage, a bit of Darwinian damage to oneself and poor judgement while cleaning or the hundreds of holster shootings into the groin or leg from Glocks that have caused many departments to change service pistols. (Glocks do not have a manual safety, they have a stage trigger. Having a gun in the same pocket as a keychain that could tangle into the trigger path is a bad recipe for the unskilled).

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Well suicide seems obvious, not to be rude. If given the option and I am not in a correct state, I would prefer a painless path. That is no great statement however likely. I don't see too much relevance in gun suicide numbers as those are a mental health issue and would people be more pleased if they just died in a different more acceptable method? If gun ownership was related to suicide rates the United States would very logically be number one by a landslide, we are not even close as 2020 WHO information had us at 31st.

Accidental shooting you must remember is not likely a civilian shooting someone else. It is police collateral damage, a bit of Darwinian damage to oneself and poor judgement while cleaning or the hundreds of holster shootings into the groin or leg from Glocks that have caused many departments to change service pistols. (Glocks do not have a manual safety, they have a stage trigger. Having a gun in the same pocket as a keychain that could tangle into the trigger path is a bad recipe for the unskilled).

US rate is 2nd in suicides amongst nations with 100M or more people. Russia is 1st.

US rate of gun deaths is 30th overall. Rate of suicide by gun is 2nd.

The rates do not include failed attempts. Or prevented attempts.

Mental health screening, flagging, and treatment should be part of the deal

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Deertick

US rate is 2nd in suicides amongst nations with 100M or more people. Russia is 1st.

US rate of gun deaths is 30th overall. Rate of suicide by gun is 2nd.

The rates do not include failed attempts. Or prevented attempts.

Mental health screening, flagging, and treatment should be part of the deal

That is a insanely selective number as you are eliminating countries by limiting it by size and narrowing until you meet a statistic appreciated. So I have qualms with eliminating most of the world to select from 13 countries and eliminating the whole of Europe. Come on now, there are 195 countries and you took it down to 13 to prove a point. Please use functional stats as percentage of 100k citizens.

As for your last statement, I would need far more info but we are certainly not far apart.

I am not against reasonable rules, I just get frustrated by such stats when used as it demeans a discussion. It’s much like stating that there are more stair falls in a 2 story home vs a ranch. I am fully for reasonable debate toward guidelines, with give and take.

I was staying out and was a bit grumpy from a poor day and probably should not have jumped in. If you feel I was attacking, I apologize, probably should have kept my mouth out of it as I continue to feel this is an exercise in futility. I just think it’s sad as in reality there is some middle ground to be found if people could discuss. I’ll try to keep out to avoid causing frustration for myself and others.

[Deertick]

Here is the complete ranking so we can feel better than Kiribati, Micronesia, and Suriname.

Country T Suicide Rate Male Female 2022 Population
Lesotho 72.4 116 30.1 2,305,825
Guyana 40.3 63 17.4 808,726
Eswatini 29.4 55.1 4.7 1,201,670
South Korea 28.6 40.2 16.9 51,815,810
Kiribati 28.3 48.6 8.7 131,232
Micronesia 28.2 43.2 12.7 114,164
Lithuania 26.1 45.4 9.6 2,750,055
Suriname 25.4 38.8 11.8 618,040
Russia 25.1 43.6 9.1 144,713,314
South Africa 23.5 37.6 9.8 59,893,885
Ukraine 21.6 39.2 6.5 39,701,739
Belarus 21.2 36.7 7.7 9,534,954
Uruguay 21.2 34.5 8.9 3,422,794
Montenegro21 31.7 10.4 627,082
Latvia 20.1 35.5 7 1,850,651
Slovenia 19.8 31.4 8.3 2,119,844
Belgium 18.3 24.9 11.8 11,655,930
Vanuatu 18 28.1 7.6 326,740
Mongolia 17.9 30.7 5.4 3,398,366
Kazakhstan17.6 29 6.8 19,397,998
Hungary 16.6 25.9 8.3 9,967,308
Croatia 16.4 25.3 8.1 4,030,358
US 16.1 25 7.5 338,289,857
Botswana 16.1 26.3 6.4 2,630,296
Japan 15.3 21.8 9.2 123,951,692
Finland 15.3 23.2 7.6 5,540,745
Estonia 14.9 24.3 6.5 1,326,062
Sweden 14.7 19.9 9.5 10,549,347
Moldova 14.7 26.1 4.1 3,272,996
Solomon I 14.7 27 1.9 724,273
Austria 14.6 22.8 6.7 8,939,617
Cuba 14.5 23 6 11,212,191
Switzerland14.5 20.2 9 8,740,472
Zimbabwe 14.1 20 8.8 16,320,537
Sri Lanka 14 22.3 6.2 21,832,143
France 13.8 20.4 7.6 64,626,628
Mozambi 13.6 22 5.7 32,969,518
India 12.7 14.1 11.1 1,417,173,173
Samoa 12.6 18 6.7 222,382
Australia 12.5 18.6 6.4 26,177,413
Germany 12.3 18.6 6.2 83,369,843
CAR 12.3 19.6 5.2 5,579,144
Slovakia 12.1 21.2 3.4 5,643,453
Iceland 11.9 19.8 3.9 372,899
Canada 11.8 17.6 6.1 38,454,327
Netherland11.8 15.5 8.3 17,564,014
Norway 11.8 15.8 7.7 5,434,319
Portugal 11.5 17.9 5.7 10,270,865
Serbia 11.4 16.6 6.3 7,221,365
Poland 11.3 20.1 3.1 39,857,145
Luxembourg11.3 15.3 7.1 647,599
Singapore 11.2 15 7.1 5,975,689
New Zealand11 16.5 5.8 5,185,288
Eritrea 10.9 16.6 5.2 3,684,032
Bosnia And Herzegovina 10.9 17.6 4.5 3,233,526
Denmark 10.7 14.9 6.5 5,882,261
Romania 9.7 16.5 3.3 19,659,267
Bulgaria 9.7 15.3 4.4 6,781,953
Namibia 9.7 16.7 3.2 2,567,012
Haiti 9.6 11.8 7.6 11,584,996
Ireland 9.6 15.4 3.9 5,023,109
Djibouti 9.6 12.6 6.4 1,120,849
Mauritius 9.5 16.3 2.8 1,299,469
N Korea 9.4 11.2 7.6 26,069,416
N Macedonia9.4 13.9 4.8 2,093,599
Georgia 9.2 16 3 3,744,385
Nepal 9 16.4 2.7 30,547,580
Cameroon 9 13.6 4.4 27,914,536
Chile 9 14.9 3.2 19,603,733
Fiji 9 12.2 5.7 929,766
Pakistan 8.9 13.3 4.3 235,824,862
Ivory Coast 8.9 14.9 2.8 28,160,542
Bahrain 8.9 12.5 2.4 1,472,233
Thailand 8.8 15 2.9 71,697,030
Togo 8.8 13.8 3.9 8,848,699
Trinidad And Tobago 8.7 13.9 3.6 1,531,044
Argentina 8.4 13.7 3.3 45,510,318
Gabon 8.4 14.2 2.4 2,388,992
China 8.1 9.8 6.2 1,425,887,337
Costa Rica 8.1 14.1 2 5,180,829
Seychelles 8.1 14.4 1.4 107,118
Uzbekistan 8 11.3 4.8 34,627,652
United Kingdom 7.9 11.8 4 67,508,936
Somalia 7.9 12 3.8 17,597,511
Equl Guinea7.9 9.4 6 1,674,908
Saint Lucia 7.9 14.3 1.7 179,857
Benin 7.8 11.8 3.8 13,352,864
Spain 7.7 11.4 4.2 47,558,630
Ecuador 7.6 11.6 3.6 18,001,000
Vietnam 7.5 10.4 4.7 98,186,856
Burkina Faso7.5 11.3 3.7 22,673,762
Kyrgyzstan 7.4 11.7 3.2 6,630,623
Zambia 7.3 12 2.7 20,017,675
Morocco 7.2 9.7 4.7 37,457,971
Belize 7.1 12.5 1.7 405,272
Guinea 7 9.2 4.9 13,859,341
Guinea Bissau 7 10.2 3.9 2,105,566
Brazil 6.9 10.9 3 215,313,498
DR Congo 6.7 10.6 2.8 99,010,212
Italy 6.7 10.1 3.5 59,037,474
Sierra Leone 6.7 8.3 5.1 8,605,718
Ghana 6.6 11.8 1.2 33,475,870
Chad 6.4 9.6 3.3 17,723,315
United Arab Emirates 6.4 8 3 9,441,129
Burundi 6.2 9.2 3.4 12,889,576
Bolivia 6.2 8.4 4.1 12,224,110
Kenya 6.1 9.1 3.2 54,027,487
Angola 6.1 10 2.3 35,588,987
El Salvador 6.1 10.5 2.1 6,336,392
Malta 6.1 9.8 2.3 533,286
Saudi Arabia 6 8.9 2 36,408,820
Senegal 6 9.2 3 17,316,449
Paraguay 6 8.7 3.2 6,780,744
Guatemala 5.9 9.3 2.6 17,843,908
Yemen 5.8 7 4.6 33,696,614
Qatar 5.8 7.2 1.7 2,695,122
Malaysia 5.7 8.9 2.3 33,938,221
Turkmenistan 5.7 8.8 2.7 6,430,770
Rwanda 5.6 8.2 3 13,776,698
Madagascar 5.5 7.6 3.4 29,611,714
Ethiopia 5.4 7.7 3.1 123,379,924
Malawi 5.4 9.2 1.7 20,405,317
Laos 5.4 7.6 3.2 7,529,475
Comoros 5.4 7 3.8 836,774
Mexico 5.3 8.5 2.2 127,504,125
Niger 5.3 7.2 3.3 26,207,977
Israel 5.3 8.4 2.3 9,038,309
Iran 5.2 7.7 2.8 88,550,570
Greece 5.1 8.4 1.9 10,384,971
Cambodia 4.9 7 2.8 16,767,842
Dominican Republic 4.9 8 1.8 11,228,821
Oman 4.9 6.8 1 4,576,298
Gambia 4.8 6.6 3 2,705,992
Uganda 4.6 7.6 1.7 47,249,585
Bhutan 4.6 6.3 2.7 782,455
Libya 4.5 6 2.9 6,812,341
Liberia 4.5 5.6 3.3 5,302,681
Nicaragua 4.4 6.9 1.9 6,948,392
Tanzania 4.3 6.6 2 65,497,748
Tajikistan 4.3 5.7 2.8 9,952,787
Albania 4.3 5.9 2.7 2,842,321
Afghanistan 4.1 4.6 3.6 41,128,771
Mali 4.1 5.3 2.9 22,593,590
Azerbaijan 4.1 6.6 1.6 10,358,074
Colombia 3.9 6.1 1.8 51,874,024
South Sudan 3.9 5.7 2 10,913,164
Sudan 3.8 4.9 2.8 46,874,204
Tonga 3.8 5 2.6 106,858
Bangladesh 3.7 5.7 1.7 171,186,372
Timor Leste 3.7 5.3 2 1,341,296
Iraq 3.6 5.2 2 44,496,122
Cyprus 3.6 6 1.3 1,251,488
Nigeria 3.5 5 1.9 218,541,212
Bahamas 3.5 5.9 1.3 409,984
Tunisia 3.3 4.7 1.9 12,356,117
Armenia 3.3 5.6 1.3 2,780,469
Mauritania 3.1 4 2.2 4,736,139
Egypt 3 4 2 110,990,103
Papua New Guinea 3 4.3 1.6 10,142,619
Myanmar 2.9 4.9 1.1 54,179,306
Panama 2.9 4.7 1 4,408,581
Kuwait 2.9 4.3 0.7 4,268,873
Peru 2.8 4.2 1.4 34,049,588
Lebanon 2.8 3.8 1.7 5,489,739
Maldives 2.7 3.9 0.8 523,787
Brunei 2.7 4.4 0.8 449,002
Algeria 2.5 3.1 1.8 44,903,225
Indonesia 2.4 3.7 1.1 275,501,339
Turkey 2.4 3.6 1.2 85,341,241
Jamaica 2.4 3.7 1.1 2,827,377
Philippines 2.2 3.1 1.2 115,559,009
Venezuela 2.1 3.5 0.7 28,301,696
Honduras 2.1 3.3 0.8 10,432,860
Jordan 1.6 2.5 0.7 11,285,869
Sao Tome And Principe 1.5 2.2 0.8 227,380
Saint Vincent And the Grenadines 1 1.3 0.6 103,948
Grenada 0.7 0.6 0.7 125,438
Barbados 0.6 0.9 0.3 281,635
Antigua And Barbuda 0.4 0 0.8 93,763

Suicide by gun rank is all countries regardless how tiny they are. And I misspoke as I looked at a ranking from 2016. We are currently #1.

Country Firearm-related death rate per 100K population per year Homicide rate per year Suicide rate per year Total death number per year
United States 12.21 4.46 7.32 40,175

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Suicide by gun rank is all countries regardless how tiny they are. And I misspoke as I looked at a ranking from 2016. We are currently #1.

Country Firearm-related death rate per 100K population per year Homicide rate per year Suicide rate per year Total death number per year
United States 12.21 4.46 7.32 40,175

Why are you using suicide by gun vs actual suicide numbers? That again is vastly misleading.

Under what reasoning is that number a better debate point than a general suicide count for the country? The method is unimportant unless you are purposely using selective data points. It is duplicitous to set a data point using an entirely assumed reason that suicide would decline if they are requested to change method, that is a public health issue.

This is a sensitive issue for me as a mental health volunteer who has lost many amazing people to mental illness and value them and continue to be angered by the disregard of our government to address an issue that is not proving a debate point by disregarding human lives with this type of statistic as politicians tend to take advantage of tragedies.

This goes entirely back to my statement and much as to why people get defensive.

I am also with you on waiting periods even if they help in a small case (I say that only in example, I do not know if they will help...but waiting a couple days in a depression circle can't hurt as it gives time to seek help. Sadly those requests are often overlooked, but that is for another discussion.)

Again, I am not attacking. This was a selected statistic located in which your answer was obvious based on ownership numbers, but leaves the most important fact off the table. It falls in the same bucket as changing the number deciding a mass murder, the weapon type percentages stay the same.

I again am trying to stay out for today, and I again state that I think we likely have more similarities than differences...this one stat used hit a little close to home for me and my experience and this is my response.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I am also with you on waiting periods even if they help in a small case (I say that only in example, I do not know if they will help...but waiting a couple days in a depression circle can't hurt as it gives time to seek help. Sadly those requests are often overlooked, but that is for another discussion.)

Justin, this is my point entirely, along with the need for a REAL commitment to MH care. The point that was trying to be made (not a fact by any stretch, as info is only obtainable via anecdotal reporting by friends/family and failed attempt survivors) is that most MH professionals who analyze the subset of suicides by firearms suggest that a large number are 'spur of the moment' decisions that may have been prevented without access to that particular firearm at that time. Can anything be done to prevent these instances that are truly effective? Who knows.

It appeared that an attempt was made to pooh-pooh the suicide by gun rate, by pointing out that someone could be successful in countless other ways. IMO, the stat of overall suicide rate in relation to all countries is virtually meaningless in this discussion. The fact that the US is in the top tier overall, and #1 in firearm use, seems that we have several significant factors involved.

Also, I am intimately aware of the stress that those who are in the MH community experience. I commend you on your service. It is not a job it is a calling. People don't realize the enormous emotional capital that is expended daily.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by JustinD

That is a insanely selective number as you are eliminating countries by limiting it by size and narrowing until you meet a statistic appreciated. So I have qualms with eliminating most of the world to select from 13 countries and eliminating the whole of Europe. Come on now, there are 195 countries and you took it down to 13 to prove a point. Please use functional stats as percentage of 100k citizens.

I just used a cutoff that accounted for 5BN people as a point of reference for a minor issue of "Total Suicide Rate" as it pertained to the topic. The "Suicide by Firearm is still a /100K and was not filtered by population totals.

I didn't mean to distort the overall point.