Gun ownership poll

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Carter08

They most certainly do not.

Finally, you admit the additional gun restrictions you advocate won't affect the criminals.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Finally, you admit the additional gun restrictions you advocate won't affect the criminals.

We act like there are two kinds of people: criminals and "good guys."
But isn't life a little more complicated than that?

For example, a depressed, troubled, but generally law abiding 18 year old can buy an assault rifle. Why not raise the age limit to decrease the chances of an 18 year old bringing an assault rifle to school?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

We act like there are two kinds of people: criminals and "good guys."
But isn't life a little more complicated than that?

For example, a depressed, troubled, but generally law abiding 18 year old can buy an assault rifle and bring it to school. Why not raise the age limit to decrease the chances of an 18 year old bringing an assault rifle to school?

The hero in the mall was just 22 years old. Just curious, how do you correlate depressed and troubled with age?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The hero in the mall was just 22 years old. Just curious, how do you correlate depressed and troubled with age?

What? I am just saying that troubled/depressed kids exist. But because they are law abiding, they can buy an assault rifle (without a considerable waiting period). This does not seem wise to me.

And I'm not asking the age limit to be 22, so I am not really sure how your comment is relevant.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

they can buy an assault rifle (without a considerable waiting period).

5,001: They factually cannot buy an assault rifle. They and the seller will go to federal prison for a very, very long time.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

5,001: They factually cannot buy an assault rifle. They and the seller will go to federal prison for a very, very long time.

Would you be interested in teaching the aspecs of thermonuclear fusion to my dog? It would be easier.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Would you be interested in teaching the aspecs of thermonuclear fusion to my dog? It would be easier.

You guys are truly hilarious.

Being able to buy an AR-15 on your 18th birthday is not that funny though.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Would you be interested in teaching the aspecs of thermonuclear fusion to my dog? It would be easier.

Apparently it would be easier, just the most basic of points on the subject, they refuse to learn, even though it sinks their argument from the get go. 'Indisputable Mechanical Facts About The Basic Function Of The Most Common Guns 101' is evidently a difficult course.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Would you be interested in teaching the aspecs of thermonuclear fusion to my dog? It would be easier.

Hahaha. Agree - it’s like trying to teach older white men about social progress.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

We act like there are two kinds of people: criminals and "good guys."
But isn't life a little more complicated than that?

It is incredibly obvious that the 'bad guy' in these discussions and scenarios is the person murdering innocent people . It's very, very, very simple. The good guy is the person taking action to stop the massacre of innocent people.

If one cannot identify who at the mall was the 'good guy' and who was the 'bad guy', well...

EDIT: For the 5,000th time they cannot legally purchase an assault rifle. "Assault rifle" is an actual object with an actual meaning.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

It is incredibly obvious that the 'bad guy' in these discussions and scenarios is the person murdering innocent people . It's very, very, very simple. The good guy is the person taking action to stop the massacre of innocent people.

If one cannot identify who at the mall was the 'good guy' and who was the 'bad guy', well...

EDIT: For the 5,000th time they cannot legally purchase an assault rifle. "Assault rifle" is an actual object with an actual meaning.

A lot of people consider the AR-15 a weapon of war. If it's not technically an assault rifle, then my apologies. Either way, I really don't understand why an 18 year old can buy one.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

A lot of people consider the AR-15 a weapon of war. If it's not technically an assault rifle, then my apologies. Either way, I really don't understand why an 18 year old can buy one.

There is not a single military force in the entire world using an AR-15 like civilians in the US may purchase. Semi-auto .223's are not used by any military. They never have been. That some find this false branding helpful to their argument does not make it true. This one is just plain factually wrong, yet again.

This one element so difficult in these debates. All of the knowledge is on one side, it's like arguing evolution with a creationist; they just do not know what they are talking about and are factually wrong over and over.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

There is not a single military force in the entire world using an AR-15 like civilians in the US may purchase. Semi-auto .223's are not used by any military. They never have been. That some find this false branding helpful to their argument does not make it true. This one is just plain factually wrong, yet again.

This one element so difficult in these debates. All of the knowledge is on one side, it's like arguing evolution with a creationist; they just do not know what they are talking about and are factually wrong over and over.

For all of your knowledge, I haven't found any of your arguments against gun reform convincing.

Please enlighten me as to how it is a good idea for an 18 year old to be able to buy an AR-15 the day they turn 18?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

For all of your knowledge, I haven't found any of your arguments against gun reform convincing.

Please enlighten me as to how it is a good idea for an 18 year old to be able to buy an AR-15 the day they turn 18?

You don't have to find them convincing. Many of us will disagree. My primary position is that we should disagree on rational grounds, and that claims to fact, which are distinct from opinions, should be actually true instead of complete fiction.

I think an 18 year old should have the right because they are an adult. The line between adult and child is arbitrary; not everyone ages the same or matures the same (many of us never do). I am distinctly uncomfortable with arbitrary law, but I don't see a better way to do it. Whether the age of adulthood is 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 I think an adult should be able to fully exercise their rights as an equal citizen. A 3 year old isn't old enough, an adult is. What exact year we draw the line is arbitrary, but I do not see how we should restrict core constitutionally protected liberties to a second class of adulthood. If an 18 year can enlist and be given a machine gun, I do not see why they can't have a neutered civilian version.

A factor is that the civilian AR-15 is not mechanically special, it's a neutered down version of the best tech of 60 years ago. It holds a special place as scary in the narrative, but it is not any more 'dangerous' if misused than dozens of other platforms.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

For all of your knowledge, I haven't found any of your arguments against gun reform convincing.

Please enlighten me as to how it is a good idea for an 18 year old to be able to buy an AR-15 the day they turn 18?

Not piling on but agree - would generally like a response to this. Don’t downplay the AR15 - it has been the weapon of choice in many mass shootings.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

For all of your knowledge, I haven't found any of your arguments against gun reform convincing.

Please enlighten me as to how it is a good idea for an 18 year old to be able to buy an AR-15 the day they turn 18?

Is it any worse than letting a teenage driver have a cellphone in their hands?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

For all of your knowledge, I haven't found any of your arguments against gun reform convincing.

Please enlighten me as to how it is a good idea for an 18 year old to be able to buy an AR-15 the day they turn 18?

Is it also a good idea to let those same unformed minds that make bad choices help select the people who run our country?

I know people who I trusted more at 12 than most adults. They showed me how to load the clay bird flinger for trap shooting safely. Semi confined space, and a strong enough machine to mess up anyone if they did it wrong. He knew the right way and showed me all the safety points of what to do or not do.

I also know adults, and far too many of them who should probably be restricted from owning forks or any other sharp implement.

It shouldn't be about the age, but the individual. and even when those individuals make threats and get a talking to from the police, those events don't get into the system the background checks work from. That's the very first and possibly most important point of failure in our current system.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

We act like there are two kinds of people: criminals and "good guys."
But isn't life a little more complicated than that?

For example, a depressed, troubled, but generally law abiding 18 year old can buy an assault rifle. Why not raise the age limit to decrease the chances of an 18 year old bringing an assault rifle to school?

Will it have any effect besides making it depressed, troubled but otherwise law abiding 21 year olds doing the same thing?

Most of the recent mass shooters have had a history of problematic behavior. Which because of either rules designed to protect people or police not wanting to do the paperwork, never get into the system that does background checks. Strengthen the data available, and you make the backround checks work better.

[G1911]

He proposed banning anything capable of holding more than 5 rounds or semi-automatic earlier. It’s not about age at all, he’s already on record with a ban on most post-civil war items for any age. The 18 year old thing seems to be a rhetorical point different from his proposal.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

He proposed banning anything capable of holding more than 5 rounds or semi-automatic earlier. It’s not about age at all, he’s already on record with a ban on most post-civil war items for any age. The 18 year old thing seems to be a rhetorical point different from his proposal.

You seem to be somewhat obsessed with my "proposed ban"

What I was attempting to do was to discuss some of the reforms that certain states have proposed. I was under the impression that New Jersey and/or New York had proposed banning the sale of any semi-automatic rifle or semi-automatic centerfire shotgun with magazines that exceed 5 rounds.

Sorry I didn't make it more clear that states are only talking limiting the magazine of semi-automatic weapons.