new low for the ebay authenticity thing

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Apparently authentication has been required for sneakers (and I think watches) on eBay for a while. Does anyone know if there is a charge to the seller or buyer for that?

I have bought several sneakers since it started and there is still no extra fee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bob, I'd be surprised with what is likely the minimal time involved in inspection given how many slabs they are likely be flooded with, whatever clerical personnel are handling this could even discern a good fake slab. Maybe there's some invisible thing that would make it easy for the very latest generation of holders, but almost surely nothing of the sort exists for all the prior generations..

If EVERY graded card listed for $500 or more is going out there now, that's bound to be a huge volume and they're probably scrambling just to put them all in those nifty baggies and blue folders and process the mailing.

[G1911]

What happens to graded cards outside of the big 3 and CSG?

GAI, SCD, GMA, and numerous other old, dubious, or scam graders. Many of these cards will still sell over the threshold for a nice card, as the threshold is not high. PSA will authenticate that the card is in a legit GMA slab, ignore that it’s probably trimmed, and send it to the buyer? Or do they just forward it along without certifying it? Has anyone bought one since this started?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

What happens to graded cards outside of the big 3 and CSG?

GAI, SCD, GMA, and numerous other old, dubious, or scam graders. Many of these cards will still sell over the threshold for a nice card, as the threshold is not high. PSA will authenticate that the card is in a legit GMA slab, ignore that it’s probably trimmed, and send it to the buyer? Or do they just forward it along without certifying it? Has anyone bought one since this started?

In all instances of the graded card review, PSA is simply looking at the holder and the flip to verify they are 100% authentic. The card inside could be altered or not even real but as long as the holder and the flip are not tampered with, you will be sent the card. Pretty silly stuff.

When you go to do a listing on eBay for a graded card these are the options you are required to pick from for the listing: PSA, SGC, CSG, BVG, BGS, BCCG, GMA, KSA, HGA but you can enter your own acronym too. Maybe those 9 are the ones flagged for the AG program.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

In all instances of the graded card review, PSA is simply looking at the holder and the flip to verify they are 100% authentic. The card inside could be altered or not even real but as long as the holder and the flip are not tampered with, you will be sent the card. Pretty silly stuff.

When you go to do a listing on eBay for a graded card these are the options you are required to pick from for the listing: PSA, SGC, CSG, BVG, BGS, BCCG, GMA, KSA, HGA but you can enter your own acronym too. Maybe those 9 are the ones flagged for the AG program.

I’m aware they are ignoring the card itself, which is the basis of my prior jabs at the absurdity of this ‘service’ and one of the jabs here.

I’m looking to know what actually happens for cards outside the big boys, as I haven’t heard any real world examples. Is PSA claiming to be an expert in the history of GMA slabs from some dudes garage? What happens to a GAI or SCD card, specifically? SCD wasn’t entirely fake, they aren’t an option on eBay categories, but it’s also not under raw and swept up in CSG’s raw card review either, as I understand it.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’m aware they are ignoring the card itself, which is the basis of my prior jabs at the absurdity of this ‘service’ and one of the jabs here.



I’m looking to know what actually happens for cards outside the big boys, as I haven’t heard any real world examples. Is PSA claiming to be an expert in the history of GMA slabs from some dudes garage? What happens to a GAI or SCD card, specifically? SCD wasn’t entirely fake, they aren’t an option on eBay categories, but it’s also not under raw and swept up in CSG’s raw card review either, as I understand it.

That's a good question, as long as we understand we are fiddling around the edges here. However that ebay and PSA decide to handle GMA and GAI cards doesn't impact the validity of the process they are putting in place for raw cards and mainstream slabs, which between them is 99.9% of what is being sold.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's a good question, as long as we understand we are fiddling around the edges here. However that ebay and PSA decide to handle GMA and GAI cards doesn't impact the validity of the process they are putting in place for raw cards and mainstream slabs, which between them is 99.9% of what is being sold.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

My criticism of PSA and the absurdity of authenticating a slab and not the card in the slab is separate and distinct from this process query.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’m aware they are ignoring the card itself, which is the basis of my prior jabs at the absurdity of this ‘service’ and one of the jabs here.

I’m looking to know what actually happens for cards outside the big boys, as I haven’t heard any real world examples. Is PSA claiming to be an expert in the history of GMA slabs from some dudes garage? What happens to a GAI or SCD card, specifically? SCD wasn’t entirely fake, they aren’t an option on eBay categories, but it’s also not under raw and swept up in CSG’s raw card review either, as I understand it.

No experience with that but I can only guess that cards graded by any company not among those listed in their drop down list will fall through the cracks. Good thing PSA does not have to be an expert on GAI, SCD, CSA, PRO, etc etc holders and labels too. Just as raw cards that have Set Break in the title or that are listed under different categories will not be subject to the AG.

With as many graded cards sold over the $500 level each day there is certainly a lack of people speaking about their experiences which suggests to me that the buyers are ok with the new policy.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bob, I'd be surprised with what is likely the minimal time involved in inspection given how many slabs they are likely be flooded with, whatever clerical personnel are handling this could even discern a good fake slab. Maybe there's some invisible thing that would make it easy for the very latest generation of holders, but almost surely nothing of the sort exists for all the prior generations..

If EVERY graded card listed for $500 or more is going out there now, that's bound to be a huge volume and they're probably scrambling just to put them all in those nifty baggies and blue folders and process the mailing.

Peter, don't disagree at all. Whomever is looking at these cards is just giving an opinion, so there is no definitive decisions being made that could potentially push back liability on the TPG or online selling platform. I'm guessing they're basically saying that if it looks like something may not be correct, we're just calling off the transaction and sending the money and cards back to their respective buyers and sellers. Not really sure what will happen otherwise if they find what they think is a fake slab/flip. The TPG doing the examining can only cancel a cert # for their own slabbed cards, they certainly don't have any say so over another TPG's slabbed cards that I'm aware of. And as someone else pointed out, canceling a cert # for a faked flip/slab then can cause an issue for the person that owns the real/legitimate card/slab. Can only imagine how happy a Registry person would be to see his/her ranking negatively affected were one of their cards to be de-certified in this manner, especially if they weren't contacted and given advance notice first. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to listen in to that exchange, were one ever to happen.

That is also why I'm guessing that if they do find what they think is an issue with a slabbed card that they will still return it to the seller. Taking and confiscating a questionable card holder, along with the card in the slab, won't go over real well with a seller if the people examining the card holder erred and there really wasn't anything wrong or questionable with the card itself.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Peter, don't disagree at all. Whomever is looking at these cards is just giving an opinion, so there is no definitive decisions being made that could potentially push back liability on the TPG or online selling platform. I'm guessing they're basically saying that if it looks like something may not be correct, we're just calling off the transaction and sending the money and cards back to their respective buyers and sellers. Not really sure what will happen otherwise if they find what they think is a fake slab/flip. The TPG doing the examining can only cancel a cert # for their own slabbed cards, they certainly don't have any say so over another TPG's slabbed cards that I'm aware of. And as someone else pointed out, canceling a cert # for a faked flip/slab then can cause an issue for the person that owns the real/legitimate card/slab. Can only imagine how happy a Registry person would be to see his/her ranking negatively affected were one of their cards to be de-certified in this manner, especially if they weren't contacted and given advance notice first. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to listen in to that exchange, were one ever to happen.

That is also why I'm guessing that if they do find what they think is an issue with a slabbed card that they will still return it to the seller. Taking and confiscating a questionable card holder, along with the card in the slab, won't go over real well with a seller if the people examining the card holder erred and there really wasn't anything wrong or questionable with the card itself.

Unless the seller somehow agreed in fine print somewhere, I think they can decertify but I don't think they can confiscate.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Unless the seller somehow agreed in fine print somewhere, I think they can decertify but I don't think they can confiscate.

Since I don't really send anything to any TPGs, nor worry or care about a Registry, I've never looked through any TPG documents in regard to grading to see if such a clause could actually exist. But you are right, it is possible something like that is in there, in the fine print, as just another CYA on their part so they can escape any responsibility or liability for their actions.

Sounds like you agree with my thinking that they would never resort to confiscating a holder/card though, as that would go beyond the mere giving of an opinion. I can definitely see that if any TPG or online seller went that far, that they better be damn certain they're 1000% right before even thinking of doing anything like that. In that case I'm not sure how a TPG could escape liability if they were later found to have erred in their examination and opinion. And they would likely also bring the online seller under scrutiny and potential liability as well, seeing as how they were the ones requiring the third-party authentication/examination in the first place, and being the party that hired the TPG to do that work.

And even if a TPG can get away with the de-certifying of a legit card/flip due to some fine print, we both know that the real owner of the legit flip/card in those situations.....will.....be.....pissed!

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by BobC

Peter, don't disagree at all. Whomever is looking at these cards is just giving an opinion, so there is no definitive decisions being made that could potentially push back liability on the TPG or online selling platform. I'm guessing they're basically saying that if it looks like something may not be correct, we're just calling off the transaction and sending the money and cards back to their respective buyers and sellers. Not really sure what will happen otherwise if they find what they think is a fake slab/flip. The TPG doing the examining can only cancel a cert # for their own slabbed cards, they certainly don't have any say so over another TPG's slabbed cards that I'm aware of. And as someone else pointed out, canceling a cert # for a faked flip/slab then can cause an issue for the person that owns the real/legitimate card/slab. Can only imagine how happy a Registry person would be to see his/her ranking negatively affected were one of their cards to be de-certified in this manner, especially if they weren't contacted and given advance notice first. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to listen in to that exchange, were one ever to happen.

That is also why I'm guessing that if they do find what they think is an issue with a slabbed card that they will still return it to the seller. Taking and confiscating a questionable card holder, along with the card in the slab, won't go over real well with a seller if the people examining the card holder erred and there really wasn't anything wrong or questionable with the card itself.

Hi Bob,

In the past when PSA has made the claim that a fake slab was provided to them on a review, outside of the AG program, they have broken out the card from the holder, deactivated the cert and returned the card to the customer in a card saver.

I think we can be sure that PSA is not going to return a PSA slabbed card in the sealed holder to the seller if the holder or flip do not pass the authenticity test. Not sure if what they would do if that same card were in an SGC, CSG or Beckett holder.

Hopefully a situation will not occur where PSA will take the opportunity to use the "fake holder" claim to take an altered card off the market and pass the cost onto the seller rather than writing a check to buy the card back.

In the meantime I have yet to hear a single person state their graded card did not get authenticated. With people being as prolific with their social media posts I would think we would have heard something, no?

Chase

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Hi Bob,

In the past when PSA has made the claim that a fake slab was provided to them on a review, outside of the AG program, they have broken out the card from the holder, deactivated the cert and returned the card to the customer in a card saver.

I think we can be sure that PSA is not going to return a PSA slabbed card in the sealed holder to the seller if the holder or flip do not pass the authenticity test. Not sure if what they would do if that same card were in an SGC, CSG or Beckett holder.

Hopefully a situation will not occur where PSA will take the opportunity to use the "fake holder" claim to take an altered card off the market and pass the cost onto the seller rather than writing a check to buy the card back.

In the meantime I have yet to hear a single person state their graded card did not get authenticated. With people being as prolific with their social media posts I would think we would have heard something, no?

Chase

Thanks Chase,

I did not know that is what they have done in the past. But it makes sense that they still return the card to limit any potential liability on their part should their examiners make a mistake. I still wonder if they'll do that in regard to this new authentication program though since this is something mandated by the online seller, and not necessarily being voluntarily requested by the buyer or the seller in these deals, and also potentially exposes the online seller to liability since they mandated the authentication program and hired the TPG.

And a great question if they would break out a card from some other TPG's slab because they don't think it is legit or possibly been tampered with. Like you, I have not heard of any instance where a card's slab has not passed authentication.....yet. Will be interesting to hear what they do in cases where a slabbed card does eventually get deemed as bad or tampered with, and if there is any difference in the treatment between a case where it is their own slab, or that of a different TPG.

And if there is a different treatment depending on which TPG's slab they find an issue with, then the independence question may really become an issue.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by BobC

Thanks Chase,

I did not know that is what they have done in the past. But it makes sense that they still return the card to limit any potential liability on their part should their examiners make a mistake. I still wonder if they'll do that in regard to this new authentication program though since this is something mandated by the online seller, and not necessarily being voluntarily requested by the buyer or the seller in these deals, and also potentially exposes the online seller to liability since they mandated the authentication program and hired the TPG.

And a great question if they would break out a card from some other TPG's slab because they don't think it is legit or possibly been tampered with. Like you, I have not heard of any instance where a card's slab has not passed authentication.....yet. Will be interesting to hear what they do in cases where a slabbed card does eventually get deemed as bad or tampered with, and if there is any difference in the treatment between a case where it is their own slab, or that of a different TPG.

And if there is a different treatment depending on which TPG's slab they find an issue with, then the independence question may really become an issue.

I think...I understand the purpose or intent of this but it is fraught with issues in my opinion. From my vantage point as a seller and buyer I have felt eBay did a pretty decent job of keeping the site free from fraud. I know this statement upset Steve to no end but this has been my experience.

eBay has had a tendency to try to fix things that were never broken. Obviously from their vantage point the AG is serving some purpose. Maybe there was a lot more fraud than we know of. I would prefer to see eBay and all the grading companies working to remove the massive volume of altered cards before they put time and effort into checking to see if my recently graded CSG card was really holdered by them. Just saying...

[Peter_Spaeth]

In 24 years of heavy buying on ebay, there was a total of ONE occasion on which someone sent me something other than what I bought. It was not an item the guarantee would apply to, and in any event I got my money back within one day. I have to believe my experience is typical of buyers in the card space. Are they REALLY saving us from anything nontrivial? Sure, you can posit the box of rocks hypothetical, but how often does that really happen? I don't think a program this disruptive can be justified by a once in a blue moon type of fraud.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I think...I understand the purpose or intent of this but it is fraught with issues in my opinion. From my vantage point as a seller and buyer I have felt eBay did a pretty decent job of keeping the site free from fraud. I know this statement upset Steve to no end but this has been my experience.

eBay has had a tendency to try to fix things that were never broken. Obviously from their vantage point the AG is serving some purpose. Maybe there was a lot more fraud than we know of. I would prefer to see eBay and all the grading companies working to remove the massive volume of altered cards before they put time and effort into checking to see if my recently graded CSG card was really holdered by them. Just saying...

LOL

I hear you. There is no perfect answer that covers everyone's questions and issues 100%. Ebay obviously had/has some intention(s) in mind when proposing and implementing this new program, but they have not seen fit to share that with everyone that uses their platform, so the best we all can do is guess as to what their true and ultimate intentions are.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

From my vantage point as a seller and buyer I have felt eBay did a pretty decent job of keeping the site free from fraud. I know this statement upset Steve to no end but this has been my experience.

This. I have been buying on eBay for 21 years. I have never once been scammed or defrauded. By applying the most basic of common sense, I've mostly avoided it. As a buyer, that eBay sides with me 100% no matter what for several weeks after a card is delivered leaves essentially no room to get defrauded anyways (which has only happened a couple times, and by big name sellers). Even if I bought a fake or the seller sent a fake instead of a legit card pictured, it doesn't really matter. I return it, eBay pays the shipping, and then eBay forces the seller to refund me.

Having every single card (or slab, they won't even review the actual card the time, which should maybe signal that this isn't about cards at all anymore) of value go through this review cannot possibly be cheaper than the old policy. Nor does it actually afford greater protection. I know this apparently sends some members into rages, but oh well.