Gun ownership poll

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

used to say that about having metal detectors at schools...people used to say it was like a jail, how can we have detectors at schools.....this also means that kids bring in arms/guns as well and we both know that metal detectors arent going to catch all...so if you know kids are going to have arms, why cant teachers........

How many kids do you have in school? And, if any, do you want them walking through metal detectors and then sitting in a classroom with a gun in it? That’s a shitty childhood in my view.

[mrreality68]

I understand and respect both sides

I personally do not want gun in schools (specifically not with the teachers). I prefer the metal detectors to walk thru and increased staffing of trained armed security.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

I understand and respect both sides

I personally do not want gun in schools (specifically not with the teachers). I prefer the metal detectors to walk thru and increased staffing of trained armed security.

Why are armed security a good idea, but those same people cannot be teachers?

If you look at all the schools in this country, a very tiny percentage of them have shooting incidents. Why should schools spend precious resources (schools are constantly under-funded, if you listen to some) having armed security sitting around, when 99.9% of them will never need to spring into action?

Let a few teachers and/or administrators go through a rigorous training program, same as a security guard or policeman, pay them extra for doing so, and then you have trained armed security at much less cost, since teaching is their primary job.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Why are armed security a good idea, but those same people cannot be teachers?

If you look at all the schools in this country, a very tiny percentage of them have shooting incidents. Why should schools spend precious resources (schools are constantly under-funded, if you listen to some) having armed security sitting around, when 99.9% of them will never need to spring into action?

Let a few teachers and/or administrators go through a rigorous training program, same as a security guard or policeman, pay them extra for doing so, and then you have trained armed security at much less cost, since teaching is their primary job.

Because you’ve now introduced guns into every school where by your calculation 99.9% of them would never otherwise have an incident. Chances of a shooting have just gone up in every one of those schools with the introduction of guns. Plus, in an earlier post I shared a detailed report that showed armed guards had little to no impact and in many cases had a negative impact.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Because you’ve now introduced guns into every school where by your calculation 99.9% of them would never otherwise have an incident. Chances of a shooting have just gone up in every one of those schools with the introduction of guns. Plus, in an earlier post I shared a detailed report that showed armed guards had little to no impact and in many cases had a negative impact.

Are we concerned about school shootings or not? After all, 99.9% of schools never have an incident.

When there is an incident, the murdering will stop when good guys with guns stop the bad guy with the gun (or knife.)

Your solution: Call 911 and wait until help arrives, as kids are being killed.
My solution: Have help right there, on site and prepared.

Does it make more sense to have a fire extinguisher in your home, or keep it 5 miles away?

[steve B]

In at least two school shootings, there was armed trained security on the scene or who arrived before the shooter was in the building and they didn't engage. The one in Uvalde didn't have a good shot.
The one in Parkland seems to have left the area.

I'm not sure having armed teachers is a good idea. Back when I was in HS and some of the male teachers were veterans of either WWII or Korea maybe.
(Dad was the superintendent for secondary schools, and the principal the last couple years was if I remember it right a Marine reserve Colonel. I don't think either one would have gone for that plan)

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Are we concerned about school shootings or not? After all, 99.9% of schools never have an incident.

When there is an incident, the murdering will stop when good guys with guns stop the bad guy with the gun (or knife.)

Your solution: Call 911 and wait until help arrives, as kids are being killed.
My solution: Have help right there, on site and prepared.

Does it make more sense to have a fire extinguisher in your home, or keep it 5 miles away?

I guess I'll never understand how some people think???
Imagine being a parent and knowing your child is in a school that is currently under attack by an assailant and praying like no tomorrow the cops arrive soon.
Talk about seconds feeling like hours.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by irv

I guess I'll never understand how some people think???
Imagine being a parent and knowing your child is in a school that is currently under attack by an assailant and praying like no tomorrow the cops arrive soon.
Talk about seconds feeling like hours.

I think fire prevention is the key. Just like the prevention of the attacks in the first place - preventing people from getting their hands on these weapons of mass killings. Fire prevention and a fire extinguisher are both good measures. Your proposal of putting guns in the school is like having a fire already burning in your house to prevent a fire. Seems silly. Will leave aside the fact that an armed guard can do more harm than good if they engage and for the money they make may not engage at all.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Why are armed security a good idea, but those same people cannot be teachers?

If you look at all the schools in this country, a very tiny percentage of them have shooting incidents. Why should schools spend precious resources (schools are constantly under-funded, if you listen to some) having armed security sitting around, when 99.9% of them will never need to spring into action?

Let a few teachers and/or administrators go through a rigorous training program, same as a security guard or policeman, pay them extra for doing so, and then you have trained armed security at much less cost, since teaching is their primary job.

they showed video of the uvalde texas police officers walking around the hallways and also parkland shooting was lawsuit against officers for not doing anything, i find it hard to believe a teacher with personal relationship to students would act the same..

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

they showed video of the uvalde texas police officers walking around the hallways and also parkland shooting was lawsuit against officers for not doing anything, i find it hard to believe a teacher with personal relationship to students would act the same..

Exactly. The kids in that school, and fellow teachers, would be like his extended family.

[KMayUSA6060]

17 officers ran away from the shooter in Uvalde.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...young-boy.html


Just so we're clear, these aren't good guys with guns. If you're unwilling to protect innocent children after getting paid by taxpayers to "serve and protect" the community, you're a POS.

I believe teachers who wish to go through extensive, EXTENSIVE training to conceal carry on the job should be allowed to. I also believe there is a large enough segment of veterans that would be willing to defend schools to provide extra security.

The teachers union and government as a whole will be a hurdle when actually protecting our kids. Again, I will always go back to government officials/politicians receiving more protection than our kids ever have.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

17 officers ran away from the shooter in Uvalde.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...young-boy.html


Just so we're clear, these aren't good guys with guns. If you're unwilling to protect innocent children after getting paid by taxpayers to "serve and protect" the community, you're a POS.

I believe teachers who wish to go through extensive, EXTENSIVE training to conceal carry on the job should be allowed to. I also believe there is a large enough segment of veterans that would be willing to defend schools to provide extra security.

The teachers union and government as a whole will be a hurdle when actually protecting our kids. Again, I will always go back to government officials/politicians receiving more protection than our kids ever have.

I have zero doubt your intentions are good here. But I think there are several drawbacks. First, a trained teacher with a pistol is going to be outgunned when these folks have assault rifles. Second, a trained teacher is bound to make a mistake and the gun may come out at the wrong time in the wrong situation. Third, a kid could get their hands on that gun so there’s a gun in use when there otherwise might not have been one. Fourth, the comparison to armed security for political figures seems misplaced because the sad reality of having to have guns around them versus kids is very different. Sending a kid to a school to sit in a room with a gun every day is a bridge many parents do not want to cross. Many would rather focus on keeping these assault rifles away.

Again, understood your intentions are good and maybe it would help. My views above show I do not agree but I am often wrong. My wife tells me daily.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I have zero doubt your intentions are good here. But I think there are several drawbacks. First, a trained teacher with a pistol is going to be outgunned when these folks have assault rifles. Second, a trained teacher is bound to make a mistake and the gun may come out at the wrong time in the wrong situation. Third, a kid could get their hands on that gun so there’s a gun in use when there otherwise might not have been one. Fourth, the comparison to armed security for political figures seems misplaced because the sad reality of having to have guns around them versus kids is very different. Sending a kid to a school to sit in a room with a gun every day is a bridge many parents do not want to cross. Many would rather focus on keeping these assault rifles away.

Again, understood your intentions are good and maybe it would help. My views above show I do not agree but I am often wrong. My wife tells me daily.

right, many of your arguments are standard arguments..........when someone doesnt like a position they usually cite that someones postion wont solve ALL....there is no 100%.......yeah a teacher can be out gunned but there may other situations where students may not attack a school at all because some teachers are armed and they dont know who is armed or from what locked door they are going to come from, plus there would likely be an armed guard...arent all armed guards also outgunned? Most police are outgunned in inner cities but we dont ban officers trying to do their job......can walk and chew gum at same time and still work on getting rid of certain assault rifles and have armed teachers

There are metal detectors at schools for a reason..and they dont catch all guns..so why have any metal detectors......but if students can sneak them through, why just let students haved guns and not the teachers..

as far as a student getting their hands on a teachers gun, this can also happen in anyone's house and why there is a gun locker...... i wont go on but you can be certain there are strong counter arguments to what anti armed teachers keep saying, meanwhile kids are getting killed ..

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right, many of your arguments are standard arguments..........when someone doesnt like a position they usually cite that someones postion wont solve ALL....there is no 100%.......yeah a teacher can be out gunned but there may other situations where students may not attack a school at all because some teachers are armed and they dont know who is armed or from what locked door they are going to come from, plus there would likely be an armed guard...arent all armed guards also outgunned? Most police are outgunned in inner cities but we dont ban officers trying to do their job......can walk and chew gum at same time and still work on getting rid of certain assault rifles and have armed teachers

There are metal detectors at schools for a reason..and they dont catch all guns..so why have any metal detectors......but if students can sneak them through, why just let students haved guns and not the teachers..

as far as a student getting their hands on a teachers gun, this can also happen in anyone's house and why there is a gun locker...... i wont go on but you can be certain there are strong counter arguments to what anti armed teachers keep saying, meanwhile kids are getting killed ..

No, it’s not that I think your solution isn’t perfect. Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. It’s that I think your solution would have a net negative effect. I’d prefer solutions that do more good than harm.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Carter08

No, it’s not that I think your solution isn’t perfect. Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. It’s that I think your solution would have a net negative effect. I’d prefer solutions that do more good than harm.

Then start proposing some.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Then start proposing some.

My proposal don’t work for you folks. Requirements that every gun purchaser take a class and show proof he or she owns a safe. Maybe a law that parents of underage kids that gain access to their weapons and use them in a school can be thrown in jail, greater restrictions on assault rifles. As for the current weapons that are out there, these laws can be applied forward. If you own an assault rifle, go out and buy a safe or if your kid gets hold of it you are going to jail.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

17 officers ran away from the shooter in Uvalde.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...young-boy.html


Just so we're clear, these aren't good guys with guns. If you're unwilling to protect innocent children after getting paid by taxpayers to "serve and protect" the community, you're a POS.

I believe teachers who wish to go through extensive, EXTENSIVE training to conceal carry on the job should be allowed to. I also believe there is a large enough segment of veterans that would be willing to defend schools to provide extra security.

The teachers union and government as a whole will be a hurdle when actually protecting our kids. Again, I will always go back to government officials/politicians receiving more protection than our kids ever have.

The leaked video is disturbing. It's easy to judge from behind a keyboard, or from the next day. It's a lot easier to be the guy in the back of the stack rather than the first guy through the door. They were there within 3 minutes, they outgunned the shooter many times over. And they just sit there. One checks his phone to look at his Punisher wallpaper, some get hand sanitizer while they just sit in the hallway doing absolutely nothing. For well over an hour, they just sit there. I find it difficult not to consider them simply LARPing cowards, while their coworkers chose to arrest and detain parents instead of, you know, address the murderer. They are there, heavily outgun him, and just sit there as defenseless children are slaughtered. More effort was expended suppressing the parents of the victims than the psychopath. I find it difficult to think of these police officers as men at all.

One incident is not a valid data set, school shootings are incredibly rare mathematically even if that's not the narrative. This incident should be more of a human tragedy than used as a political bludgeon, but it doesn't seem to 'help' either side. With ~80 minutes to do whatever the hell he wanted, having a scary looking model of rifle becomes irrelevant. Whether semi-auto or bolt action or a muzzle loading musket, it doesn't matter in this situation. The advantages of an AR type rifle provide no real gain in this situation. Quicker shooting is very important in a gunfight; lightweight ammunition means a lot on a long hike in the field. it means essentially nothing in a closed off environment without a time factor against defenseless children. Meanwhile, the complete lack of any desire by the authorities to address the situation does not aid an argument that armed guards will help. I believe Parkland was the last such incident, and there to the armed wing of the state declined to actually do anything. That a paid security guard will choose to do what ~15 cops won't seems unlikely.

I do think a teacher who wants to carry should be allowed to; as the 2nd amendment allows. Unlike a security guard, a teacher who is armed in a s situation like this incident (which is truly incredibly rare statistically) does not have to be a hero and put themselves in harms way to take the chance of getting the bad guy. The teacher in the classroom will probably die if they do not shoot back; they are there and trapped like the kids. They can't just stand outside.