Ryan and run support

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

That he did it over the course of 27 years is phenomenal. No one else has done it. If he had been 12% over the league for 12 seasons, it would not be phenomenal.

Pitchers who pitched almost as long as Ryan and had similar ERA+

Tommy John -26 years & 111 ERA+
Jim Kaat-25 years & 108 ERA+
Charlie Hough-25 years & 106 ERA+
Dennis Martinez-23 years & 106 ERA+

Its not phenomenal, its borderline HOF worthy. Before anyone misinterprets what I'm saying, I'm not saying Ryan is borderline HOF but his ERA+ is.

Just as a comparison
Tom Seaver-20 years & 127 ERA+

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Pitchers who pitched almost as long as Ryan and had similar ERA+

Tommy John -26 years & 111 ERA+
Jim Kaat-25 years & 108 ERA+
Charlie Hough-25 years & 106 ERA+
Dennis Martinez-23 years & 106 ERA+

Its not phenomenal, its borderline HOF worthy. Before anyone misinterprets what I'm saying, I'm not saying Ryan is borderline HOF but his ERA+ is.

Being above average for a very long time produces a ton of value. I think it is phenomenal. It is extraordinary. It is oustanding. Tommy John and Jim Kaat had phenomenal careers too, though not as good as Ryan. I am unable to see a valid argument that Ryan did not have a phenomenal career. I'd love to hear it. I am on the 'anti-Ryan' side but this does not seem to me to be realistic and leans to far the other way. Ryan, Ripken, Jeter, there's a lot of guys I think are overrated but going the exact opposite direction is not any more accurate. 27 years, 5,386 innings, and he beat the league average by 12%. That's a hell of a phenomenal career.

Hough became a starting pitcher at age 34 and he and Martinez are not close in innings and actual playing time to Ryan, but that's alright.

EDIT: To reply to your edit, yes I agree Tom Seaver is better. I do not think Tom Seaver is the bench mark for phenomenal. I would say more than 10 or so pitchers in all of baseball history had phenomenal careers.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

Being above average for a very long time produces a ton of value. I think it is phenomenal. It is extraordinary. It is oustanding. Tommy John and Jim Kaat had phenomenal careers too, though not as good as Ryan. I am unable to see a valid argument that Ryan did not have a phenomenal career. I'd love to hear it. I am on the 'anti-Ryan' side but this does not seem to me to be realistic and leans to far the other way. Ryan, Ripken, Jeter, there's a lot of guys I think are overrated but going the exact opposite direction is not any more accurate. 27 years, 5,386 innings, and he beat the league average by 12%. That's a hell of a phenomenal career.

Hough became a starting pitcher at age 34 and he and Martinez are not close in innings and actual playing time to Ryan, but that's alright.

EDIT: To reply to your edit, yes I agree Tom Seaver is better. I do not think Tom Seaver is the bench mark for phenomenal. I would say more than 10 or so pitchers in all of baseball history had phenomenal careers.

Tommy John and Jim Kaat are borderline HOFers, I guess we have different definitions of what phenomenal means.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Tommy John and Jim Kaat are borderline HOFers, I guess we have different definitions of what phenomenal means.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phenomenal

I'm using C): "remarkable, outstanding". I still don't see the argument Ryan did not have a remarkable career, an oustanding career, a phenomenal career.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phenomenal

I'm using C): "remarkable, outstanding". I still don't see the argument Ryan did not have a remarkable career, an oustanding career, a phenomenal career.

Ryan did other things that made him great but when it came to preventing runs, he was only slightly above average.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Ryan did other things that made him great but when it came to preventing runs, he was only slightly above average.

This is the part where I once again state that I said "That he did it over the course of 27 years is phenomenal"; I am not arguing what you are arguing against here: that disconnected from his career length his ERA+ is outstanding. It is phenomenal in the context of an absurdly long career, as specifically stated in posts 24, 26 and 30. Only 4 pitchers have thrown more innings. I think being 12% greater than the league for such an extremely long time is remarkable and outstanding. His success over 27 years is remarkable. He is greatly overrated but I do not see the argument that his run prevention over 5,386 innings was not remarkable. If it is not, then we've got only a couple of guys in baseball history who might be.

[ClementeFanOh]

Wow, lots of "tennis match" style back and forth between Nolan supporters
and those who feel he is "overrated". Full disclosure before I proceed, I am
neither an Angels nor an Astros fan, and Nolan isn't among my 3 favorite
players. However, I am a child of the 70s/80s so Nolan was in full force as
I grew up.

I will never understand people who attempt to somehow make Ryan
"smaller". Thankfully, no one above argued he shouldn't be HOF, so even
his detractors haven't left the planet. My 5 second internet search reveals
84 pitchers in the HOF. Even if we "demote" Ryan to 84th on that list- a true
stretch- he's still got to be in the top 1% of MLB history among pitchers.
It's hard to calculate how many pitchers there have been in MLB since, say,
1900...

For those of you who are too young to recall, Ryan was a phenomenon for
a LONG time. The 100 mph fastball, a string of 7 of 8 seasons with 300+
strikeouts, SEVEN no-nos. Didn't matter if you loved or hated him, he was
the symbol of MLB pitching for many years. This does NOT mean he was
"better" than Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver, or Steve Carlton. Those pitchers
were wonderful and did some things Ryan didn't; however, the reverse
also is true. For guys who worship at the altar of numbers, Ryan has them
over a 27 year career (!). I looked up the definition of "fame", and it is
"the state of being known or talked about by many people". Looks like he
checks that box too...

Again, my favorites are Clemente, Carew, and Aaron, so I'm not a Ryan
apologist or flag waver; however, his "rank" among HOF pitchers is largely
irrelevant. He clearly belongs there and possesses some of the most
remarkable statistical achievements and longevity imaginable, even in that
lofty circle. The HOF was constructed to honor players like him, he is a
monumental figure in the game's history (a positive figure, I suppose I
must note for this crowd). Trent King

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Pitchers who pitched almost as long as Ryan and had similar ERA+

Tommy John -26 years & 111 ERA+
Jim Kaat-25 years & 108 ERA+
Charlie Hough-25 years & 106 ERA+
Dennis Martinez-23 years & 106 ERA+

Its not phenomenal, its borderline HOF worthy. Before anyone misinterprets what I'm saying, I'm not saying Ryan is borderline HOF but his ERA+ is.

Just as a comparison
Tom Seaver-20 years & 127 ERA+

You list guys who had the years, but nowhere near the innings pitched.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

You list guys who had the years, but nowhere near the innings pitched.

In G1911's original post, his point was that Ryan did it over 27 years. No mention was made of innings.

But OK, Phil Niekro had more innings pitched than Ryan 5404 to 5386, Niekro had a higher ERA+ than Ryan 115 to 112. I've never seen anyone claim Niekro was an all time great.

[ClementeFanOh]

Jim65- the mania continues, eh? My handy dandy internet research reveals
that fifty-eight players have made HOF on first ballot. That's 58 out of
thousands upon thousands of players. Like it or not, Nolan Ryan is one of
those and he IS an "all time great". Doesn't mean he's the greatest, but "all
time great" definitely fits. You, sir, "doth protest too much".

I'll admit you've hooked me. Your factual argument is a non starter, so the
only reason you keep dinging Ryan is some sort of dislike. Did he tune up
your favorite player or team? Bean you during fantasy camp? You a Robin
Ventura fan? At this point, an explanation of your crusade is more
compelling than a failed argument. How'd he hurt you?

Trent King

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Jim65- the mania continues, eh? My handy dandy internet research reveals
that fifty-eight players have made HOF on first ballot. That's 58 out of
thousands upon thousands of players. Like it or not, Nolan Ryan is one of
those and he IS an "all time great". Doesn't mean he's the greatest, but "all
time great" definitely fits. You, sir, "doth protest too much".

I'll admit you've hooked me. Your factual argument is a non starter, so the
only reason you keep dinging Ryan is some sort of dislike. Did he tune up
your favorite player or team? Bean you during fantasy camp? You a Robin
Ventura fan? At this point, an explanation of your crusade is more
compelling than a failed argument. How'd he hurt you?

Trent King

You're right, I hate Nolan Ryan. He's the greatest pitcher who ever lived. Feel better?

[ClementeFanOh]

Jim65- I feel better knowing you just punted. Trent King

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Jim65- I feel better knowing you just punted. Trent King

Because dealing with condescending people is tiresome . You win, go brag to your friends. You da man.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

In G1911's original post, his point was that Ryan did it over 27 years. No mention was made of innings.

But OK, Phil Niekro had more innings pitched than Ryan 5404 to 5386, Niekro had a higher ERA+ than Ryan 115 to 112. I've never seen anyone claim Niekro was an all time great.

I think my point was that he was effective for an absurdly long career. Years, innings, by any definition Ryan had the or one of the longest pitching careers in all of baseball history. If you want to get technical you couldn’t name a single one who matched 27 years. Maybe that’s a sign of being extraordinary, doing something no one else has.

Phil Niekro had a phenomenal (remarkable, extraordinary) career too, with a very unusual trajectory and path. His remarkable career is probably why he is in the Hall of Fame and being remarked upon. If he did not have a phenomenal career, then almost no one did. Who are we to remark on if even these guys are not remarkable? If these are not extraordinary careers, I’m hard pressed to think of any that are.

In my opinion Nolan Ryan is probably the most overrated starting pitcher in the entirety of baseball history. But he still had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think my point was that he was effective for an absurdly long career. Years, innings, by any definition Ryan had the or one of the longest pitching careers in all of baseball history. If you want to get technical you couldn’t name a single one who matched 27 years. Maybe that’s a sign of being extraordinary, doing something no one else has.

Phil Niekro had a phenomenal (remarkable, extraordinary) career too, with a very unusual trajectory and path. His remarkable career is probably why he is in the Hall of Fame and being remarked upon. If he did not have a phenomenal career, then almost no one did. Who are we to remark on if even these guys are not remarkable? If these are not extraordinary careers, I’m hard pressed to think of any that are.

In my opinion Nolan Ryan is probably the most overrated starting pitcher in the entirety of baseball history. But he still had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

My post wasn't a jab at Niekro, Niekro was better at preventing runs than Ryan, and he wasn't a 1st ballot HOFer.

For a guy who had all those strikeouts, no-hitters, fewest hits per 9 innings, etc, Ryan should have been better at preventing runs than he was.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

My post wasn't a jab at Niekro, Niekro was better at preventing runs than Ryan, and he wasn't a 1st ballot HOFer.

For a guy who had all those strikeouts, no-hitters, fewest hits per 9 innings, etc, Ryan should have been better at preventing runs than he was.

I agree. His walks and inability to control the ball well reduced his effectiveness. If he had control he might have been the greatest pitcher ever. I don’t think that’s a reasonable baseline to judge on though - ‘he could have been better’. So could everyone. I never said he was perfect. He had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree. His walks and inability to control the ball well reduced his effectiveness. If he had control he might have been the greatest pitcher ever. I don’t think that’s a reasonable baseline to judge on though - ‘he could have been better’. So could everyone. I never said he was perfect. He had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

Of course everyone could be better, but Ryan should have been better. With his stuff and desire, he should have been a Top 5 all time pitcher.