Ryan and run support

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

Being above average for a very long time produces a ton of value. I think it is phenomenal. It is extraordinary. It is oustanding. Tommy John and Jim Kaat had phenomenal careers too, though not as good as Ryan. I am unable to see a valid argument that Ryan did not have a phenomenal career. I'd love to hear it. I am on the 'anti-Ryan' side but this does not seem to me to be realistic and leans to far the other way. Ryan, Ripken, Jeter, there's a lot of guys I think are overrated but going the exact opposite direction is not any more accurate. 27 years, 5,386 innings, and he beat the league average by 12%. That's a hell of a phenomenal career.

Hough became a starting pitcher at age 34 and he and Martinez are not close in innings and actual playing time to Ryan, but that's alright.

EDIT: To reply to your edit, yes I agree Tom Seaver is better. I do not think Tom Seaver is the bench mark for phenomenal. I would say more than 10 or so pitchers in all of baseball history had phenomenal careers.

Tommy John and Jim Kaat are borderline HOFers, I guess we have different definitions of what phenomenal means.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Tommy John and Jim Kaat are borderline HOFers, I guess we have different definitions of what phenomenal means.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phenomenal

I'm using C): "remarkable, outstanding". I still don't see the argument Ryan did not have a remarkable career, an oustanding career, a phenomenal career.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phenomenal

I'm using C): "remarkable, outstanding". I still don't see the argument Ryan did not have a remarkable career, an oustanding career, a phenomenal career.

Ryan did other things that made him great but when it came to preventing runs, he was only slightly above average.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Ryan did other things that made him great but when it came to preventing runs, he was only slightly above average.

This is the part where I once again state that I said "That he did it over the course of 27 years is phenomenal"; I am not arguing what you are arguing against here: that disconnected from his career length his ERA+ is outstanding. It is phenomenal in the context of an absurdly long career, as specifically stated in posts 24, 26 and 30. Only 4 pitchers have thrown more innings. I think being 12% greater than the league for such an extremely long time is remarkable and outstanding. His success over 27 years is remarkable. He is greatly overrated but I do not see the argument that his run prevention over 5,386 innings was not remarkable. If it is not, then we've got only a couple of guys in baseball history who might be.

[ClementeFanOh]

Wow, lots of "tennis match" style back and forth between Nolan supporters
and those who feel he is "overrated". Full disclosure before I proceed, I am
neither an Angels nor an Astros fan, and Nolan isn't among my 3 favorite
players. However, I am a child of the 70s/80s so Nolan was in full force as
I grew up.

I will never understand people who attempt to somehow make Ryan
"smaller". Thankfully, no one above argued he shouldn't be HOF, so even
his detractors haven't left the planet. My 5 second internet search reveals
84 pitchers in the HOF. Even if we "demote" Ryan to 84th on that list- a true
stretch- he's still got to be in the top 1% of MLB history among pitchers.
It's hard to calculate how many pitchers there have been in MLB since, say,
1900...

For those of you who are too young to recall, Ryan was a phenomenon for
a LONG time. The 100 mph fastball, a string of 7 of 8 seasons with 300+
strikeouts, SEVEN no-nos. Didn't matter if you loved or hated him, he was
the symbol of MLB pitching for many years. This does NOT mean he was
"better" than Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver, or Steve Carlton. Those pitchers
were wonderful and did some things Ryan didn't; however, the reverse
also is true. For guys who worship at the altar of numbers, Ryan has them
over a 27 year career (!). I looked up the definition of "fame", and it is
"the state of being known or talked about by many people". Looks like he
checks that box too...

Again, my favorites are Clemente, Carew, and Aaron, so I'm not a Ryan
apologist or flag waver; however, his "rank" among HOF pitchers is largely
irrelevant. He clearly belongs there and possesses some of the most
remarkable statistical achievements and longevity imaginable, even in that
lofty circle. The HOF was constructed to honor players like him, he is a
monumental figure in the game's history (a positive figure, I suppose I
must note for this crowd). Trent King

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

I will never understand people who attempt to somehow make Ryan
"smaller".

For those of you who are too young to recall, Ryan was a phenomenon for
a LONG time. The 100 mph fastball, a string of 7 of 8 seasons with 300+ strikeouts

And I do not understand why his fans try to make him better than he was. Most fans agree he was a great pitcher, why isnt that enough?

For the record, Ryan had 6 300 K seasons, not 7 or 8. Randy Johnson holds the record for most consecutive 300 K seasons with 5.

[ClementeFanOh]

James- for the record, it's obvious you are a detractor and your comments
are colored by your dislike. My sincerest (??) apologies for the error on the
number of his 300 K seasons, it was from memory and (for the record) Ryan
holds the career K record by around 900 more than Randy Johnson.
Any attempt to somehow diminish a player who was the most recognizable
performer at his position for 15ish years, is a fool's errand. You'd have been
better off to say you just don't like Ryan, your attempts to minimize him
are a strikeout- looking, no less. Trent King

[cardsagain74]

Most people talk about Ryan as if he's always been considered a mythical figure, but he wasn't really the toast of the town (especially his card values) until those final years in Texas. The no-hitter in '81 caught everyone's attention. But for the rest of the '80s he was somewhat forgotten for a long time.

So for the first half of the junk wax boom, his cards weren't a key in every pre 1980 set or highly sought after. He was just another HOF level pitcher to many.

But getting that 5000th strikeout, the last two no-hitters, Robin Ventura noogies, and putting up great numbers for someone in their mid-40s changed everything, and for good reason. Plus he always had the shiny thing factor of throwing a million mph going for him.

So even though his lifetime effectiveness wasn't at the elite level that his strongest pundits believe, it's easy to understand the lore behind his legacy.