ebay authenticity guarantee limits now 250/750

[jchcollins]

Not really sure the point of grading cards that are already graded, but unfortunately this is the next logical step in the insanity of a TPG world that already has purple labels and Brent-approved stickers for how nice your grade is or is not.

I've been less than thrilled with eBay for some time, and for all practical purposes quit selling cards there about a year ago. Looks like my timing was pretty good...

[x2drich2000]

Just a few more questions, is Ebay (or PSA or whoever), sending the packages out insured? What happens if USPS loses a package between the review and the buyer getting the card? Who is responsible?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Not really sure the point of grading cards that are already graded, but unfortunately this is the next logical step in the insanity of a TPG world that already has purple labels and Brent-approved stickers for how nice your grade is or is not.

I've been less than thrilled with eBay for some time, and for all practical purposes quit selling cards there about a year ago. Looks like my timing was pretty good...

They aren't grading the card again, they are just trying to verify that the slab has not been tampered with.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by jayshum

They aren't grading the card again, they are just trying to verify that the slab has not been tampered with.

Ok. But it is authenticating cards that have already been graded, which is very close to the same thing.

Sorry, but an experienced collector cannot tell this from the scans before they buy? If the scans are of such poor quality that I cannot tell on eBay, I'm not pulling the trigger. A card that has been tampered with or a slab that gets damaged in the mail was already covered by the eBay guarantee - which is actually quite good.

I'd rather the card get to me quicker and take the risk (that pays off 95% of the time or more) that everything is just fine than have to send an SGC slab to PSA so that PSA can say the slab is not compromised on every single card over a certain amount. Sorry, that's just silly. I've had slabs arrive that are cracked in a way I didn't notice before I bought them. I've either sent them back in working with the seller, or had eBay step in on the rare occasion where the seller didn't want to play ball. It always works out. I'd rather do that only when I have to and trust the process that works the rest of the time. I guess I get what eBay is trying to do, I just think it should be optional.

[Snapolit1]

No offense guys, but pretty remarkable how many people had very passionate opinions on this before they even bothered to understand what it actually involved.

Ah, a sign o' the times . . . .

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by jayshum

They aren't grading the card again, they are just trying to verify that the slab has not been tampered with.

Is PSA more capable of identifying altered slabs than they are at identifying altered cards?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Not really sure the point of grading cards that are already graded, but unfortunately this is the next logical step in the insanity of a TPG world that already has purple labels and Brent-approved stickers for how nice your grade is or is not.

I've been less than thrilled with eBay for some time, and for all practical purposes quit selling cards there about a year ago. Looks like my timing was pretty good...

I don't think Ebay has anyone grading cards that are already graded. My understanding is Ebay is having PSA review the holders of graded cards to make sure they are legit and haven't been tampered with. Not sure if they're also supposed to review the flips to make sure they're legit and accurate a well. That, to me, is way different that re-grading cards that have already been graded.

It is also a bit concerning because how and when did PSA suddenly become an expert in reviewing slabs, especially any other TPGs slabs? The TPGs most likely all contract with outside companies to design and manufacture the slabs they put cards in, and have people in their employ just learn what they need to seal them. Not sure how that specifically qualifies any TPG as an expert to review and determine that slabs may have been tampered with, or that they are legitimate to the TPG that supposedly issued them. I would think someone with the slab manufacturers and/or their designers, and a background in plastics, would actually be a much better choice. And if they are also concerned with the flips, and possible counterfeiting of them, PSA will certainly have full access to all their own graded cards records to be able to check cert #s and such, but how are they going to have such access to other TPG's records? And on the surface, this also can easily appear to be an inherent conflict of interest in that PSA is now looking at other TPG's slabs and can raise concerns and issues about them, while possibly passing on concerns and issues that may exist with their own slabs. I'm in no way saying they're doing that, but it is usually best to be independent in fact, AND APPEARANCE, when doing something like this.

I'm guessing that the actual card graders at PSA have little, if anything at all, to do with this graded card slab authentication program they're now involved in with Ebay. Many people have voiced concerns about how PSA has a huge grading backlog they are still dealing with, so they question how can they take on additional work like this for Ebay? I'm guessing the slab authentication is handled by none of the actual card graders at PSA, and is really having no impact on their grading backlog and getting caught up on it. Just speculation on my part.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BobC

I don't think Ebay has anyone grading cards that are already graded. My understanding is Ebay is having PSA review the holders of graded cards to make sure they are legit and haven't been tampered with. Not sure if they're also supposed to review the flips to make sure they're legit and accurate a well. That, to me, is way different that re-grading cards that have already been graded.

It is also a bit concerning because how and when did PSA suddenly become an expert in reviewing slabs, especially any other TPGs slabs? The TPGs most likely all contract with outside companies to design and manufacture the slabs they put cards in, and have people in their employ just learn what they need to seal them. Not sure how that specifically qualifies any TPG as an expert to review and determine that slabs may have been tampered with, or that they are legitimate to the TPG that supposedly issued them. I would think someone with the slab manufacturers and/or their designers, and a background in plastics, would actually be a much better choice. And if they are also concerned with the flips, and possible counterfeiting of them, PSA will certainly have full access to all their own graded cards records to be able to check cert #s and such, but how are they going to have such access to other TPG's records? And on the surface, this also can easily appear to be an inherent conflict of interest in that PSA is now looking at other TPG's slabs and can raise concerns and issues about them, while possibly passing on concerns and issues that may exist with their own slabs. I'm in no way saying they're doing that, but it is usually best to be independent in fact, AND APPEARANCE, when doing something like this.

I'm guessing that the actual card graders at PSA have little, if anything at all, to do with this graded card slab authentication program they're now involved in with Ebay. Many people have voiced concerns about how PSA has a huge grading backlog they are still dealing with, so they question how can they take on additional work like this for Ebay? I'm guessing the slab authentication is handled by none of the actual card graders at PSA, and is really having no impact on their grading backlog and getting caught up on it. Just speculation on my part.

To me it's all just more noise on top of noise. Flooding the proverbial zone...

All of the respected TPG's have had major trust issues at some point in their respective histories. Whether or not they have recovered / earned trust again is largely up to individual collectors. Clearly the PSA base was not significantly, if at all damaged - by PWCC-gate and related events since 2019.

eBay suddenly raising their heads to care about this at all out of nowhere is amusing to me if nothing else - they never before and do not now have the first bit of common hobby knowledge about sportscards, and until now have not ever pretended to act like they care. This is the company that still highlights $200k Fleer Jose Uribe cards in my social media feeds, for cripes sake.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

To me it's all just more noise on top of noise. Flooding the proverbial zone...

All of the respected TPG's have had major trust issues at some point in their respective histories. Whether or not they have recovered / earned trust again is largely up to individual collectors. Clearly the PSA base was not significantly, if at all damaged - by PWCC-gate and related events since 2019.

eBay suddenly raising their heads to care at all about this out of nowhere is amusing to me if nothing else - they never and do not now have the first bit of common hobby knowledge about sports cards, and until now have not ever pretended to act like they care. This is the company that highlights $200k Fleer Jose Uribe cards in my social media feeds, for cripes sake.

John.

Maybe it seems like just noise, especially for us collectors, but remember, cards are actually a very small part of Ebay's overall business. These things they do are likely being done from a more purely business standpoint, in mitigating any potential liability and other concerns, that may arise and scare off potential sellers and customers. Truth is, hard core collectors, like most of us on this forum, are not critical to Ebay's business, and Ebay virtually never thinks abouts or concerns themselves with Net54, or care what and how we feel about them.

Still, I can't imagine Ebay does things for no good reason. They likely view some of these things they are implementing as potentially heading off issues they feel may impact their business negatively down the road. And they don't have to tell us their real reasoning why! Unfortunately, not a lot we can really say or do, we just get stuck living with it.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BobC

John.
Maybe it seems like just noise, especially for us collectors, but remember, cards are actually a very small part of Ebay's overall business.

No, I get it. eBay is the world's biggest garage sale. Hodgepodge galore, no specialization in any one area.

My comments on the last were pointed to the fact that they would seem to be implementing a very specific policy on something which they clearly have no expertise with. Maybe from a business standpoint they think it will help with the number of cases opened and returns initiated and that sort of thing, and that would be valid. But as to nuances of how collectors (and those that would consider themselves investors) would deal with the situation or the detail of operating practices for this TPG or that, you can't tell me that eBay has a clue. It's just an interesting proposition.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

No, I get it. eBay is the world's biggest garage sale. Hodgepodge galore, no specialization in any one area.

My comments on the last were pointed to the fact that they would seem to be implementing a very specific policy on something which they clearly have no expertise with. Maybe from a business standpoint they think it will help with the number of cases opened and returns initiated and that sort of thing, and that would be valid. But as to nuances of how collectors (and those that would consider themselves investors) would deal with the situation or the detail of operating practices for this TPG or that, you can't tell me that eBay has a clue. It's just an interesting proposition.

I agree with you John, they have no special expertise. But just like how they suddenly decided to start collecting sales tax for every auction, I think a lot of their reasoning was that they figured that if they didn't, they could be losing sellers. Think of all the people selling on Ebay that don't really know, or want to know, about collecting and remitting sales taxes. Also, that would have called for all their sellers to start registering with various states for licenses to collect and remit sales taxes. My guess is that Ebay saw that a lot of sellers would be gun shy and not want to bother doing that, or ever put up with the hassle of sales tax collection at all. And Ebay probably figured that since they are such a huge marketplace, they'd have a target on their back from states looking to find out who was selling on their site and ask for info to go after them. Ebay actually sells nothing, and is not at all responsible for collecting and remitting sales taxes to states. I can easily see Ebay thinking that by going overboard, and working out a deal with the states to collect sales tax on behalf of all their sellers, the states would be happy, and the sellers wouldn't have to deal with this and register with states and keep track of all this. That way they stay selling on Ebay.

These other moves regarding authentication are likely some kind of a pre-emptive things they think will help keep customers and sellers for them down the road. I know there are lots of people who think this new authentication program by Ebay is a scheme for them to be able to end up billing more fees. I don't think this is a fee issue for Ebay, just more of a "making sure the customers are happy" thing.

[Snapolit1]

FYI, eBay has also rolled out authentication services for sneakers, watches and luxury handbags. So clearly there is a bigger business focus here than sucking up to PSA or any of the other theories that have been advanced in this corner of the world.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BobC

I agree with you John, they have no special expertise. But just like how they suddenly decided to start collecting sales tax for every auction, I think a lot of their reasoning was that they figured that if they didn't, they could be losing sellers. Think of all the people selling on Ebay that don't really know, or want to know, about collecting and remitting sales taxes. Also, that would have called for all their sellers to start registering with various states for licenses to collect and remit sales taxes. My guess is that Ebay saw that a lot of sellers would be gun shy and not want to bother doing that, or ever put up with the hassle of sales tax collection at all.

I forget the specifics, but my understanding on the sales tax decision was that a court case came down which put the handwriting for that on the wall. I'm not sure if eBay was compelled to put that in place by a certain date or if it was just obvious that they would soon be challenged if they didn't. I will agree between issues like this, and changes to policy such as surrounding authentication - it would seem more difficult to business on eBay than ever before.

When I first joined eBay, you could see full info. on both sellers and buyers, and even message competing bidders. I once contacted a bidder who kept topping me saying "Hey could I persuade you to let me win this (vintage scouting photo...) because my father-in-law is in it, and I would like to give it to him as a gift." The guy wrote back and graciously agreed. Can you imagine anything like that happening today?

[rjackson44]

This is insane

[Snapolit1]

Maybe the problem with counterfeit slabs is far worse, and getting worse, than believed.

When real good counterfeit slabs of high end cards begin to flood the market the hobby (as in all of us) is truly fu*ked.

At least the slabbed part of these seems to be a nothing burger to me and a net positive. Sold one card and it delayed the card getting to the buyer by maybe 2 days? When someone has to start paying for it it will be an issue.

[savedfrommyspokes]

For any sellers/buyers who would like to avoid having cards go through this authentication service/process for whatever reason, simply sell a card as a part of a "lot". Selling at least one additional card with the card that qualifies for authentication would, according to ebay's fine print, not have to go through this process as lots are currently not eligible for this service/process.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

For any sellers/buyers who would like to avoid having cards go through this authentication service/process for whatever reason, simply sell a card as a part of a "lot". Selling at least one additional card with the card that qualifies for authentication would, according to ebay's fine print, not have to go through this process as lots are currently not eligible for this service/process.

That's what I was wondering about as well. Sell that Cobb with a 400 count box of '88 Donruss and you're good to go!

[Exhibitman]

We all know that eventually this will just be another skimming center for eBay fees. Sellers will receive that "we just did something great" email ramming this 'service' down our throats at a cost, and eBay will skim its 3% off the deal for processing payments for this 'service'. The proof that this is a proposed profit center rather than a legitimate effort to protect buyers is in the complexity of the solution. The vast majority of card buyers are familiar with what they are buying. If you want the buyer to have a chance to look over a raw card purchase, the answer is simple: give all buyers three days from receipt to review their purchases and hold the funds until the three days is up. if the buyer decides to return the item during the return period, the funds are there pending proof of return to the seller. It is called "escrow" and it doesn't cost eBay a dime: eBay is already processing and holding funds. If the buyer doesn't apply for a return, then after three days the buyer is SOL. And don't do it at all for slabs--they are already vetted. But nooooo, eBay prefers a solution where everyone has to be inconvenienced and put at the mercy of a third party's (possibly bad) judgment. Why? Because eBay can make money off that process whenever it decides to force the cost onto sellers by charging its funds processing fee on the cost.

Why unveil this now? Probably because in their recent earnings call, eBay cited Gross Merchandise Volume (GMV) down 17% in the first quarter of 2022, year-over-year. Revenue down 5%. And the number of active buyers dropped 13% from 163 million in Q1 2021 to 142 million in Q1 2022. They are scrambling for revenue and imposing a new service and skimming yet another processing fee is a way to get it.

So when does the cost get imposed? I'd guess around Black Friday, just in time to force sellers to choose between paying the piper in order to sell into the holidays or telling eBay to get stuffed and scrambling for another platform.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

We all know that eventually this will just be another skimming center for eBay fees.

Exactly. At best the current setup is a disproportionate solution that doesn’t really fit the problem. Oh, and it’s easily turned into a fee generating service…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Probably because in their recent earnings call, eBay cited Gross Merchandise Volume (GMV) down 17% in the first quarter of 2022, year-over-year. Revenue down 5%. And the number of active buyers dropped 13% from 163 million in Q1 2021 to 142 million in Q1 2022. They are scrambling for revenue and imposing a new service and skimming yet another processing fee is a way to get it.

I believe (my opinion of course) that a lot of this decline in eBay sales and sellers has to do with the new 1099 requirement imposed on eBay, PayPal, Zelle, Venmo, etc. to report aggregate annual gross transaction revenues per seller over $600 -- which was part of the 2021 American "Rescue" Plan. The new service/skimming will ultimately not work and just shoo more sellers (and buyers) away from these platforms. It is fair to say that this new 1099 requirement makes unscrupulous sellers who under-report sales pay what they owe; on the other hand, many sellers (myself included) who report their card income to the IRS simply don't want the hassle of receiving a 1099 and will no longer deal with these platforms.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I believe (my opinion of course) that a lot of this decline in eBay sales and sellers has to do with the new 1099 requirement imposed on eBay, PayPal, Zelle, Venmo, etc. to report aggregate annual gross transaction revenues per seller over $600 -- which was part of the 2021 American "Rescue" Plan. The new service/skimming will ultimately not work and just shoo more sellers (and buyers) away from these platforms. It is fair to say that this new 1099 requirement makes unscrupulous sellers who under-report sales pay what they owe; on the other hand, many sellers (myself included) who report their card income to the IRS simply don't want the hassle of receiving a 1099 and will no longer deal with these platforms.

Scot,

You've hit the nail on the head!

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I believe (my opinion of course) that a lot of this decline in eBay sales and sellers has to do with the new 1099 requirement imposed on eBay, PayPal, Zelle, Venmo, etc. to report aggregate annual gross transaction revenues per seller over $600 -- which was part of the 2021 American "Rescue" Plan. The new service/skimming will ultimately not work and just shoo more sellers (and buyers) away from these platforms. It is fair to say that this new 1099 requirement makes unscrupulous sellers who under-report sales pay what they owe; on the other hand, many sellers (myself included) who report their card income to the IRS simply don't want the hassle of receiving a 1099 and will no longer deal with these platforms.

If you are already reporting card income, why is receiving a 1099 a hassle? Is it because all that is reported is the total amount sold with no indication of costs (and therefore profit)?