Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Hi Mark! Just playing devil's advocate


A. PSA Knowingly Graded Altered Cards

How can one prove this?

Because they call themselves experts at authentication. How can they be if they can't detect an altered card? Sounds like a fraud one way or the other.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Because they call themselves experts at authentication. How can they be if they can't detect an altered card? Sounds like a fraud one way or the other.

Its their opinion I opine

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Because they call themselves experts at authentication. How can they be if they can't detect an altered card? Sounds like a fraud one way or the other.

Rob,

Don't disagree with you at all, but here in a nutshell is where/how we all get screwed.

There is absolutely nothing illegal about trimming, altering, or doing anything else your heart desires to a baseball (or any) card you own. There is also absolutely nothing illegal about submitting an altered or trimmed card to a third-party grading company or service. And to my knowledge, there is no legal requirement that you tell any such TPG you submit a card to that it has been altered, trimmed, or doctored in any way, by you or anyone else. Now as for the TPGs examining said cards, they explicitly have it worded in their documentation and agreements that they are only giving their "opinion" as to a card's authenticity and condition. How do/can you ask a jury to find someone guilty of simply giving their "opinion" about something, especially when there is no single recognized, documented, and/or enforced set of codified standards or measures that a TPG, and their individual card graders, are required to follow? Short answer - you can't.

Card graders are not licensed by any independent, overseeing authorities, like say doctors, CPas, licensed architects, etc. There is no single, unchanging set of card grading standards to hold any TPG and their card graders to. Look at how many times on just this forum alone we've discussed how different TPGs all seem to have their own separate grading standards, and how even those standards appear to continually change over time. And also, not everyone in the hobby is in agreement as to what exactly constitutes an alteration or doctoring of a card. In fact, there are those that look upon such work as perfectly acceptable restoration or preservation of a card. Again, just on this forum alone, we have threads where soaking, erasing marks, removal of glue and stains, pressing out creases, and so on, are discussed and considered at different levels of acceptability by different people. So, if we in the hobby can't possibly all agree on one single, unchanging, recognized and documented set of standards and measures regarding the authentication and grading of cards, how could we expect some jury to ever find anyone guilty of having committed a crime regarding the grading, authentication, and sale of supposedly altered and doctored cards?

If anything, you'd likely have better luck prevailing against Ebay in their claims that their new authentication program virtually guarantees you'll get authentic cards, and as described. The independent TPG doing that authentication work is once again, only giving their "opinion", so how could Ebay truly guarantee anything? They really can't. But if you dig deep into Ebay's terms and conditions regarding this newly offered service, I wouldn't be surprised to find wording that helps to protect and/or indemnify them from any such potential claims.

And the worst thing is, there's not a whole lot we can do about any of this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA will not grade items which bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity, and Customer agrees not to knowingly submit any such items. Customer agrees that in the event PSA rejects any items for grading, PSA shall not refund the amount paid by Customer because the determination to reject an item requires a review by PSA's graders and authenticators. Customer represents and warrants that he/she has no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that any item submitted for grading has been altered in any way or is not genuine. For purposes of this Agreement, “altered items” shall have the meaning set forth in the applicable Dealer Agreement or PSA Collectors Club Agreement by and between Customer and PSA (the “Customer Agreement”). If Customer has not entered into the Customer Agreement, Customer hereby agrees to be bound by the terms of the Customer Agreement, a copy of which can be found at PSAcard.com/join, and Customer's acceptance of this Agreement shall constitute Customer's signature on the Customer Agreement. Customer reaffirms its obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in the Customer Agreement.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA will not grade items which bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity, and Customer agrees not to knowingly submit any such items. Customer agrees that in the event PSA rejects any items for grading, PSA shall not refund the amount paid by Customer because the determination to reject an item requires a review by PSA's graders and authenticators. Customer represents and warrants that he/she has no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that any item submitted for grading has been altered in any way or is not genuine. For purposes of this Agreement, “altered items” shall have the meaning set forth in the applicable Dealer Agreement or PSA Collectors Club Agreement by and between Customer and PSA (the “Customer Agreement”). If Customer has not entered into the Customer Agreement, Customer hereby agrees to be bound by the terms of the Customer Agreement, a copy of which can be found at PSAcard.com/join, and Customer's acceptance of this Agreement shall constitute Customer's signature on the Customer Agreement. Customer reaffirms its obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in the Customer Agreement.

Peter,

I see and understand what you're trying to do, but my comment about submitting altered cards to a TPG was that it is not illegal. What you just printed is the type of lawyer-speak that a TPG has in their agreements and documents to CTA (cover their asses), pure and simple. Absolutely nowhere does anything indicate there is an illegality to anyone for submitting something to a TPG that they know to be altered. Otherwise, why doesn't a TPG ever contact police when they get something that they see has been tampered with, and continue getting submissions from the same submitter they've found to give them such altered items, over and over again? That TPG language you printed is to make sure that they can have plausible deniability if there does turn out to be some blowback to a TPG for an altered item that is "accidently" graded and slabbed by them, and to also reinforce the fact that they get to charge for whatever they look at and grade, and keep the money, regardless of them finding it altered or not.

I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but for a card grading submission to PSA (or any other TPG for that matter), is there a specific question anywhere on their paperwork/application/submission form/whatever that directly asks the submitter if they are knowingly submitting an altered or trimmed card to them for grading? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that is a big "NO". Reason being of course that if they did, and someone was actually dumb enough to answer that yes, they were trying to submit an altered/trimmed card for grading, the TPG would have to immediately nix the submission since they specifically state they do not grade such cards. And then they couldn't charge for it and get to keep the grading fee money.

Allow me to translate what you just printed into very simple laymen's terminology:

Don't ever tell us you are submitting an altered, doctored, or trimmed card to us for grading, because if you do, we can only give it an authentic grade, at best, and we can't really charge you for it then unless you still want it with an "A" grade. But if you do ever submit an altered, doctored, or trimmed card for grading without telling us, and you did such a piss-poor job that even we can catch it, it will only get an "authentic" grade, at best, and we're keeping your money. And on the off chance you did such a good job with the altering, doctoring, or trimming, to the point where we our graders couldn't detect it or just plain missed it, we'll grade it. But if it ever comes back later on that the card you submitted was altered, doctored, or trimmed, it is your fault and responsibility because you didn't tell us up front.

I think that is pretty close to the true meaning.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bob you're sort of knocking down a straw man because nobody has ever suggested merely trimming a card or submitting it for grading without subsequently SELLING it is illegal. It's the sale part that's the problem, and then it all becomes a problem. And if a TPG is knowingly grading altered cards it knows are going to be sold, it's arguably aiding and abetting the fraud.

[chjh]

This will turn out to be a nonevent. The vast majority of class action lawsuits end up with a financial settlement that is not significant other than covering attorney fees. I bet this will end the same.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bob you're sort of knocking down a straw man because nobody has ever suggested merely trimming a card or submitting it for grading without subsequently SELLING it is illegal. It's the sale part that's the problem, and then it all becomes a problem. And if a TPG is knowingly grading altered cards it knows are going to be sold, it's arguably aiding and abetting the fraud.

Peter,

I know and agree, which is exactly why I think they put that kind of wording in their agreements that you quoted. If they come out say in their agreements that you're not supposed to knowingly submit altered cards to them, but you do anyway, they can always say they missed it, or it is only their opinion, so as to get out of any possible liability. But their big ace in the hole, to me, is that because you didn't tell them up front a card you submitted was altered/trimmed, you lied to them and they can plausibly deny that they had any knowledge an altered/trimmed card that got past them, and was numerically graded as a result, was going to be sold.

As I believe you have intimated yourself, we may pretty much believe and know what is going on and what it appears that certain parties are doing, the problem is actually being able to prove it in a court of law.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Peter,

I know and agree, which is exactly why I think they put that kind of wording in their agreements that you quoted. If they come out say in their agreements that you're not supposed to knowingly submit altered cards to them, but you do anyway, they can always say they missed it, or it is only their opinion, so as to get out of any possible liability. But their big ace in the hole, to me, is that because you didn't tell them up front a card you submitted was altered/trimmed, you lied to them and they can plausibly deny that they had any knowledge an altered/trimmed card that got past them, and was numerically graded as a result, was going to be sold.

As I believe you have intimated yourself, we may pretty much believe and know what is going on and what it appears that certain parties are doing, the problem is actually being able to prove it in a court of law.

And don't forget in a criminal trial they would not have to testify at all. I think there is plenty of circumstantial evidence, but is it proof beyond a reasonable doubt?

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by BobC

…And the worst thing is, there's not a whole lot we can do about any of this.

All we can do as collectors is try not to get duped in the process.

Excellent post Bob.

Butch

[clydepepper]

I'm glad that sh*t probstein is included.

Karma!



.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I'm glad that sh*t probstein is included.

Karma!



.

The suit has been settled, and in all likelihood for a token amount.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Rob,

Don't disagree with you at all, but here in a nutshell is where/how we all get screwed.

There is absolutely nothing illegal about trimming, altering, or doing anything else your heart desires to a baseball (or any) card you own. There is also absolutely nothing illegal about submitting an altered or trimmed card to a third-party grading company or service. And to my knowledge, there is no legal requirement that you tell any such TPG you submit a card to that it has been altered, trimmed, or doctored in any way, by you or anyone else. Now as for the TPGs examining said cards, they explicitly have it worded in their documentation and agreements that they are only giving their "opinion" as to a card's authenticity and condition. How do/can you ask a jury to find someone guilty of simply giving their "opinion" about something, especially when there is no single recognized, documented, and/or enforced set of codified standards or measures that a TPG, and their individual card graders, are required to follow? Short answer - you can't.

Card graders are not licensed by any independent, overseeing authorities, like say doctors, CPas, licensed architects, etc. There is no single, unchanging set of card grading standards to hold any TPG and their card graders to. Look at how many times on just this forum alone we've discussed how different TPGs all seem to have their own separate grading standards, and how even those standards appear to continually change over time. And also, not everyone in the hobby is in agreement as to what exactly constitutes an alteration or doctoring of a card. In fact, there are those that look upon such work as perfectly acceptable restoration or preservation of a card. Again, just on this forum alone, we have threads where soaking, erasing marks, removal of glue and stains, pressing out creases, and so on, are discussed and considered at different levels of acceptability by different people. So, if we in the hobby can't possibly all agree on one single, unchanging, recognized and documented set of standards and measures regarding the authentication and grading of cards, how could we expect some jury to ever find anyone guilty of having committed a crime regarding the grading, authentication, and sale of supposedly altered and doctored cards?

If anything, you'd likely have better luck prevailing against Ebay in their claims that their new authentication program virtually guarantees you'll get authentic cards, and as described. The independent TPG doing that authentication work is once again, only giving their "opinion", so how could Ebay truly guarantee anything? They really can't. But if you dig deep into Ebay's terms and conditions regarding this newly offered service, I wouldn't be surprised to find wording that helps to protect and/or indemnify them from any such potential claims.

And the worst thing is, there's not a whole lot we can do about any of this.

Your third paragraph is fallacious reasoning. There is clear hobby consensus, and even PSA's terms and conditions admit, that trimming and recoloring are unacceptable alteration. It's irrelevant that there are other things people don't agree on. Slippery slope fallacy. Assuming the evidence supported it, a jury could easily find that the knowing sale without disclosure of a trimmed card was fraud. There are detailed discussions of this by me and others from early in the scandal. I don't have the energy or motivation to find them.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your third paragraph is fallacious reasoning. There is clear hobby consensus, and even PSA's terms and conditions admit, that trimming and recoloring are unacceptable alteration. It's irrelevant that there are other things people don't agree on. Slippery slope fallacy. Assuming the evidence supported it, a jury could easily find that the knowing sale without disclosure of a trimmed card was fraud. There are detailed discussions of this by me and others from early in the scandal. I don't have the energy or motivation to find them.

What clear hobby consensus? There are some people that are all for restoration, and very many others that allow, or at least put up with, various other forms of alterations or doctoring. Hell, the very first card ever graded by PSA, and what is likely to become the most valuable card ever sold once again, next time it gets sold, is a known altered/trimmed card in a PSA 8 holder. What do you honestly think PSA would do should its current owner come back to them with the Gretzky Wagner, and ask that it be re-holdered?

We have been discussing for years how the grading standards and measures of TPGs are not the same, and how they keep changing over the years. All you'd have to do is grab different graded cards of different TPGs over the years, and show them to a jury for themselves to decide if what was graded as a 4 on different cards actually looks the same to them. And remember, chances of an actual card collector being allowed to stay on a jury by the defense is slim to none, at best. For criminal prosecution the standard is still to my knowledge " beyond a reasonable doubt". You, my friend, may be a little biased because of your own card collecting background and knowledge, and assume a jury will be of somewhat comparable thinking and experience. I'm going to guess they won't. And once they start hearing about all the different companies, graders, issues, etc., there are likely going to be a lot of doubts creeping into their minds.

I could go back and look for your own words in various posts, but let me paraphrase what I believe you yourself have stated in the past, knowing someone is guilty is one thing, but you can't always prove it in a court of law.

As I look at it, I'm afraid that the only way we may finally get someone convicted of a crime in all this fraud is if law enforcement and prosecutors can actually get someone directly involved in it to flip and testify against others directly involved. The participants that may, or may not, be involved in such fraud are not stupid though, and I doubt they would voluntarily turn on each other at this point. Unless they can get nailed for something else and only see making a deal with prosecutors as a way out by basically turning states evidence. As of now, it doesn't look like that is happening though.

Along those lines, I believe I remember reading elsewhere on this forum that Brent from PWCC was initially cooperating with investigators on the alteration/trimming fraud case. And then suddenly, he was not anymore. If actually true, that is a very interesting and intriguing development, don't you think? In potential cases like this, involving multiple companies and people, sometimes learning to say nothing is the best defense of all. There's an awful lot of truth to the old adage that ignorance (or at least the projection of such) is bliss!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

What clear hobby consensus? There are some people that are all for restoration, and very many others that allow, or at least put up with, various other forms of alterations or doctoring. Hell, the very first card ever graded by PSA, and what is likely to become the most valuable card ever sold once again, next time it gets sold, is a known altered/trimmed card in a PSA 8 holder. What do you honestly think PSA would do should its current owner come back to them with the Gretzky Wagner, and ask that it be re-holdered?

We have been discussing for years how the grading standards and measures of TPGs are not the same, and how they keep changing over the years. All you'd have to do is grab different graded cards of different TPGs over the years, and show them to a jury for themselves to decide if what was graded as a 4 on different cards actually looks the same to them. And remember, chances of an actual card collector being allowed to stay on a jury by the defense is slim to none, at best. For criminal prosecution the standard is still to my knowledge " beyond a reasonable doubt". You, my friend, may be a little biased because of your own card collecting background and knowledge, and assume a jury will be of somewhat comparable thinking and experience. I'm going to guess they won't. And once they start hearing about all the different companies, graders, issues, etc., there are likely going to be a lot of doubts creeping into their minds.

I could go back and look for your own words in various posts, but let me paraphrase what I believe you yourself have stated in the past, knowing someone is guilty is one thing, but you can't always prove it in a court of law.

As I look at it, I'm afraid that the only way we may finally get someone convicted of a crime in all this fraud is if law enforcement and prosecutors can actually get someone directly involved in it to flip and testify against others directly involved. The participants that may, or may not, be involved in such fraud are not stupid though, and I doubt they would voluntarily turn on each other at this point. Unless they can get nailed for something else and only see making a deal with prosecutors as a way out by basically turning states evidence. As of now, it doesn't look like that is happening though.

Along those lines, I believe I remember reading elsewhere on this forum that Brent from PWCC was initially cooperating with investigators on the alteration/trimming fraud case. And then suddenly, he was not anymore. If actually true, that is a very interesting and intriguing development, don't you think? In potential cases like this, involving multiple companies and people, sometimes learning to say nothing is the best defense of all. There's an awful lot of truth to the old adage that ignorance (or at least the projection of such) is bliss!

Brent was definitely cooperating at one point, as acknowledged by his counsel at the time.

On another point, yes it's difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt under the rules of evidence in many cases even where the person is guilty, but in this case that wouldn't be because of any doubt that trimming is an impermissible alteration, on that point I would not be troubled. It would clearly be a material omission not to disclose a card is trimmed. You don't need an absolute consensus to establish that anyhow.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brent was definitely cooperating at one point, as acknowledged by his counsel at the time.

On another point, yes it's difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt under the rules of evidence in many cases even where the person is guilty, but in this case that wouldn't be because of any doubt that trimming is an impermissible alteration, on that point I would not be troubled. It would clearly be a material omission not to disclose a card is trimmed. You don't need an absolute consensus to establish that anyhow.

I know, and I'm with you, but if the trimming is such that the TPG doesn't catch it (or says they didn't), it is kind of like money laundering now that the card resides in a respected and trusted TPG's holder. These TPGs have put forth that they are the experts, and based on the kind of money thrown at them to grade cards and the premiums cards in certain TPG holders seem to bring over raw and other graded cards in the hobby, it sure seems like they are considered the be-all and end-all experts. So, unless some card doctor comes forth and actually admits he/she submitted an altered/trimmed card to a TPG that they then mistakenly graded, you aren't likely going to be able to convict the card doctor of anything. By mistakenly encapsulation an altered/trimmed card, the TPG hobby expert has effectively opined and said the card was good. So who else do you bring in to court to testify against an accepted hobby expert? I'm not so sure the BODA/Blowout guys would be automatically afforded the same level of respect and expertise acceptance in a court of law in front of a jury as the TPGs who actually have people paying them for their work and opinions. And if you do find and bring in a different TPG to testify against them:

1. Now the jury is going to see that the supposed TPG experts actually don't appear to all have or follow the same grading standards and measures (unless the TPG being testified against is suddenly willing to admit they blew it and made a mistake).

2. Now you've set a precedent of one TPG testifying against another, which could end up backfiring down the road if the two TPGs ever find their positions switched in some future case. I can easily see one TPG agreeing to testify against another as revenge for testimony that was previously given against them.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by BobC

And remember, chances of an actual card collector being allowed to stay on a jury by the defense is slim to none, at best.

They should make the entire jury card collectors...let the hobby decide how criminal something is!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by conor912

They should make the entire jury card collectors...let the hobby decide how criminal something is!

Don't disagree at all, but that is exactly why a defense lawyer/team will never let it happen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Don't disagree at all, but that is exactly why a defense lawyer/team will never let it happen.

Relative to the general population there aren't that many collectors. I would bet the odds of even one showing up in a typical jury pool are pretty low.