Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bob you're sort of knocking down a straw man because nobody has ever suggested merely trimming a card or submitting it for grading without subsequently SELLING it is illegal. It's the sale part that's the problem, and then it all becomes a problem. And if a TPG is knowingly grading altered cards it knows are going to be sold, it's arguably aiding and abetting the fraud.

Peter,

I know and agree, which is exactly why I think they put that kind of wording in their agreements that you quoted. If they come out say in their agreements that you're not supposed to knowingly submit altered cards to them, but you do anyway, they can always say they missed it, or it is only their opinion, so as to get out of any possible liability. But their big ace in the hole, to me, is that because you didn't tell them up front a card you submitted was altered/trimmed, you lied to them and they can plausibly deny that they had any knowledge an altered/trimmed card that got past them, and was numerically graded as a result, was going to be sold.

As I believe you have intimated yourself, we may pretty much believe and know what is going on and what it appears that certain parties are doing, the problem is actually being able to prove it in a court of law.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Peter,

I know and agree, which is exactly why I think they put that kind of wording in their agreements that you quoted. If they come out say in their agreements that you're not supposed to knowingly submit altered cards to them, but you do anyway, they can always say they missed it, or it is only their opinion, so as to get out of any possible liability. But their big ace in the hole, to me, is that because you didn't tell them up front a card you submitted was altered/trimmed, you lied to them and they can plausibly deny that they had any knowledge an altered/trimmed card that got past them, and was numerically graded as a result, was going to be sold.

As I believe you have intimated yourself, we may pretty much believe and know what is going on and what it appears that certain parties are doing, the problem is actually being able to prove it in a court of law.

And don't forget in a criminal trial they would not have to testify at all. I think there is plenty of circumstantial evidence, but is it proof beyond a reasonable doubt?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And don't forget in a criminal trial they would not have to testify at all. I think there is plenty of circumstantial evidence, but is it proof beyond a reasonable doubt?

That is exactly my point, these card doctors, and everyone else involved, have an almost perfect setup to get away with this, assuming they are all in cahoots. As long as they all don't get too chummy and share everything they do and know with each other, they can continue to deny knowledge of anyone doing anything intentionally wrong. It otherwise seems almost impossible to be able to gather enough evidence to convict anyone of anything.

And if they ever do get hauled in to court.......

Exhibit A - The Gretzky Wagner

This card is a known trimmed/altered card in a graded holder, graded by arguably the No 1 TPG in the world , and yet is likely still worth more than any other sports card on the planet! So, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, here is a card graded by a trusted and respected hobby TPG that is proven to be wrongly graded, yet is probably still worth more than every other sports card there is. In fact, because of the notoriety of the card and the mis-grading, it is arguably worth even more, not less money, today. And there is that little kernel of a reasonable doubt that can start to creep into a juror's mind.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You know, it’s funny, when I spoke years ago long before the scandal to Brian B, we talked a bit about the Wagner and whether it showed the hobby didn’t really care about trimming. I don’t think he believed that, and the fact that he investigated the scandal extensively shows otherwise, but it’s an interesting rhetorical point. I liked your closing argument but I think the other side would have a much better one at least on that point.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You know, it’s funny, when I spoke years ago long before the scandal to Brian B, we talked a bit about the Wagner and whether it showed the hobby didn’t really care about trimming. I don’t think he believed that, and the fact that he investigated the scandal extensively shows otherwise, but it’s an interesting rhetorical point. I liked your closing argument but I think the other side would have a much better one at least on that point.

i agree, but again, I believe a defense attorney/team would make sure to keep as many actual card collectors off a jury as possible. So assuming you're dealing with mostly ordinary people that think of us hard core collectors as idiot nerds (LOL), that kind of factual information will likely stick in their minds, and possibly give them reason to doubt that the prosecution claiming such trimming and alterations is always bad, may not be so true. They only need to get one person on that jury to have reasonable doubt, right?