Please Cleveland: go back to Indians?

[Carter08]

Naps would have been very cool but overall I think Cleveland Baseball Club and Washington Football Club would be better than the chosen names.

[frankbmd]

The Cleveland Eeries (not a typo)

An Eerie closer would scare the visitors to death.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The Cleveland Eeries (not a typo)

An Eerie closer would scare the visitors to death.

How about an Ear-y closer?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

How about an Ear-y closer?

The Cleveland Moss Ears. I can get on the bandwagon for that name change.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The Cleveland Eeries (not a typo)

An Eerie closer would scare the visitors to death.

It gets even better than that Frank. The historically prominent Terminal Tower building and complex was completed in 1927, and at that time was the 2nd tallest building in the world. The old, longstanding joke has been: Cleveland.....the only city in the world with a tower that is terminal, overlooking a lake that is (e)erie.

And of course, don't forget one of our unofficial city anthems, Randy Newman's iconic "Burn on Big River" song.

The supposed honoring of Louis Sockalexis, the first ever native American MLB player in history, is likely more myth than pure fact. Though his name was mentioned by the still surviving till today, Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper as a source for the new "Indians" name starting in 1915, the truth is Sockalexis was a drunken alcoholic. He ended up appearing for the then Cleveland Spiders in only 94 games over a three-season period from 1897-1899, after which the Spiders permanently disbanded. If anything, because of his well-known issues with alcoholism and poor MLB level of performance, choosing him as the primary source of the name for the Indians doesn't really make sense. Especially when his life and actions appear to support some of the more negative connotations supposedly associated with native Americans back in the day.

Instead, the true thinking behind the Indians name is thought to be derived from the fact that Cleveland/Northeastern Ohio was at one time the home of Iroquoian speaking tribes, like the Wyandotte and Mingo. The Cuyahoga River runs through the heart of the City of Cleveland, which is also located in Cuyahoga County. The word "cuyahoga" is derived from native American languages and generally means "crooked river". In fact, the state name "Ohio" is actually based on an Iroquoian word from the Seneca tribe used to name/describe the Ohio River. The native American meaning is "it is beautiful". So, it is also felt that that native American past and history was then coupled with the then very recent historical success of the Boston Braves who won the 1914 World Series. And since Boston already had dibs on the Braves name, Cleveland then grabbed the Indians as their new moniker, which was considered acceptable at the time.

And by historical, I refer to the fact that the "Miracle" Braves were in last place in the National League on July 4, 1914 yet ended up winning the NL pennant by 10-1/2 games. They then went on to become the first ever team to win a World Series in a four-game sweep, beating the Philadelphia A's. And this was all done with a team and roster that included only one single future HOFer on it. A 33-year-old Johnny Evers, who's stats were average or pedestrian, at best, in 1914. Cleveland may have been looking/hoping for some of that Braves good fortune to rub off on them by picking the somewhat related Indians name as the new team moniker, while also recognizing the city's/area's native American roots.

Meanwhile, the new "Guardians" name is supposedly in tribute to the carved figures on the four pylons helping to support the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge as it crosses over the Cuyahoga River, right outside and next to where the team currently plays in Progressive Field. The bridge was completed in 1932 and the "Guardians of the Traffic" carvings have a decidedly art-deco look to them (think Diamond Stars cards). The bridge was officially renamed the "Hope Memorial Bridge" then in 1983, but is still considered the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge by many older locals. There are varying versions as to who, or what, the bridge was actually renamed for. Some media have claimed it was renamed in honor of William Henry "Harry" Hope, a local stonemason who took part in building the bridge, or his son, the famous comedian Bob Hope, the Hope family as a whole, or for all the people who built the bridge with Harry Hope as the designated representative of them. And there is a big Cleveland Indians connection as well. Bob Hope, though born in England, grew up in Cleveland and was a Naps/Indians fan, and who's favorite player growing up was Tris Speaker. He actually became a minority owner of the Indians when Bill Veeck took control off the team, and kept a minority ownership in the Tribe for over 40 years. He even made the cover of Sports Illustrated back in June of 1963, dressed in an Indians uniform.

So there may be a little more to the Guardians name than some thought.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by BobC

The supposed honoring of Louis Sockalexis, the first ever native American MLB player in history, is likely more myth than pure fact. Though his name was mentioned by the still surviving till today, Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper as a source for the new "Indians" name starting in 1915, the truth is Sockalexis was a drunken alcoholic. He ended up appearing for the then Cleveland Spiders in only 94 games over a three-season period from 1897-1899, after which the Spiders permanently disbanded. If anything, because of his well-known issues with alcoholism and poor MLB level of performance, choosing him as the primary source of the name for the Indians doesn't really make sense. Especially when his life and actions appear to support some of the more negative connotations supposedly associated with native Americans back in the day.

This may be the worst take on the life of Louis Sockalexis I have ever read. Seriously!?!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

This may be the worst take on the life of Louis Sockalexis I have ever read. Seriously!?!

Rhett,

You are questioning me about the take on Sockalexis and going to give me crap about it? I should be the one asking you - Seriously!?!

Do us both a favor and do a little online research on Sockalexis and his short-lived Cleveland Spiders career. I think you'll quickly discover he was a tad less than stellar. He did start off his 1897 MLB rookie season like a star and helped propel the Spiders to a great start. However, he also apparently liked to drink and carouse quite a bit at night, and was given the nickname "wild bird" by his teammates as a result. Come early July of that rookie season, a foot injury hampered his play, with some sources saying it was the result of his jumping/falling from the second floor window of a brothel, while others claimed he hurt it running the basepaths. Regardless, his drinking apparently caught up to him and by late July of 1897 it was reported in the local Plain Dealer newspaper that team management couldn't control him anymore. He apparently also developed anger issues and became very sullen, to the point where he pretty much spent the rest of the 1897 season on the bench.

He then spent most of the 1898 season on the bench as well. Following that 1898 season the Spiders sold most of their players to St. Louis, but apparently, they didn't want Sockalexis. So, he started the 1899 season with the Spiders playing alongside mostly rejects, prospects, and semi-pro players. Supposedly he started off the season okay, but then his game quickly deteriorated again, to the point where it was reported he fell down drunk playing in the outfield twice during a game on May 13, 1899. He was released by the team soon after that, despite the Spiders only winning 20 games the entire season and being the worst team in MLB that year. Sockalexis was out of MLB for good, even though he was still only 27 years old at the time. I think it's pretty damning when you are so bad, you get cut by the worst team in baseball.

And then over the next couple of years after that he also ended up being arrested and jailed for drunkenness, making a public disturbance, and vagrancy. He ended up dying of a heart attack on December 24, 1913, at the fairly young age off 42.

So, how would you like me to sugar coat the major league baseball part of his career and life, so it is more to your liking?

And this is why I mentioned that the idea of the Indians being named in honor of the very first native American to play in the major leagues may not be as accurate as some would like to hope/think. Though some newspapers apparently made mention of Sockalexis at the time the Indians name was picked, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the team to really have been named in his honor due to his actual history and career with the team being so miserable, and the fact that he apparently lived up to and helped perpetuate the derogatory stereotype of a "drunken Indian".

I had also for years heard, and believed, the story of the Indians being named to honor Sockalexis. But, eventually coming across some contrary statements, I did some research and learned more of the truth about him. If anything, he is a somewhat tragic figure, and the fact that his name was mentioned in the press at the time of the Indians name selection change may have had more to do with it being a better story by which to sell newspapers than anything else.

You've heard the modern saying that if you read it on the internet, it must be true? Well 100+ years ago newspapers were pretty much the equivalent of today's internet for getting one's news.

[G1911]

I think newspaper reports should always be questioned, and it is possible the name had less to do with Sockalexis than the traditional story. I would love to see any evidence this is the case though and it was something else that inspired the naming.

But if we are to ignore the newspaper reports because they are often inaccurate, why are we citing those same newspapers to attack Sockalexis' character? Aren't the allegations in them of his drunkeness and brothel visiting to be held to the same standard as the reports on the team naming, if we believe that newspaper reports cannot be trusted? How can we logically allow one into evidence but require the dismissal of the other?


I must admit I find it a little amusing that attacking a Native-American for being a drunk, an old negative racist stereotype of them, is given in the context of defending why the team name was offensive and it was proper to change it.

[John1941]

I wouldn't say that Bob C.'s take on Sockalexis is factually incorrect, but I think it's missing something. Sockalexis was very talented, and was a great player before the drinking started. I remember him being very popular, though I might be wrong.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Indian team name was inspired both by the Boston Braves and by Sockalexis. Not mutually exclusive.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by BobC

Rhett,

You are questioning me about the take on Sockalexis and going to give me crap about it? I should be the one asking you - Seriously!?!

Do us both a favor and do a little online research on Sockalexis and his short-lived Cleveland Spiders career. I think you'll quickly discover he was a tad less than stellar. He did start off his 1897 MLB rookie season like a star and helped propel the Spiders to a great start. However, he also apparently liked to drink and carouse quite a bit at night, and was given the nickname "wild bird" by his teammates as a result. Come early July of that rookie season, a foot injury hampered his play, with some sources saying it was the result of his jumping/falling from the second floor window of a brothel, while others claimed he hurt it running the basepaths. Regardless, his drinking apparently caught up to him and by late July of 1897 it was reported in the local Plain Dealer newspaper that team management couldn't control him anymore. He apparently also developed anger issues and became very sullen, to the point where he pretty much spent the rest of the 1897 season on the bench.

He then spent most of the 1898 season on the bench as well. Following that 1898 season the Spiders sold most of their players to St. Louis, but apparently, they didn't want Sockalexis. So, he started the 1899 season with the Spiders playing alongside mostly rejects, prospects, and semi-pro players. Supposedly he started off the season okay, but then his game quickly deteriorated again, to the point where it was reported he fell down drunk playing in the outfield twice during a game on May 13, 1899. He was released by the team soon after that, despite the Spiders only winning 20 games the entire season and being the worst team in MLB that year. Sockalexis was out of MLB for good, even though he was still only 27 years old at the time. I think it's pretty damning when you are so bad, you get cut by the worst team in baseball.

And then over the next couple of years after that he also ended up being arrested and jailed for drunkenness, making a public disturbance, and vagrancy. He ended up dying of a heart attack on December 24, 1913, at the fairly young age off 42.

So, how would you like me to sugar coat the major league baseball part of his career and life, so it is more to your liking?

And this is why I mentioned that the idea of the Indians being named in honor of the very first native American to play in the major leagues may not be as accurate as some would like to hope/think. Though some newspapers apparently made mention of Sockalexis at the time the Indians name was picked, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the team to really have been named in his honor due to his actual history and career with the team being so miserable, and the fact that he apparently lived up to and helped perpetuate the derogatory stereotype of a "drunken Indian".

I had also for years heard, and believed, the story of the Indians being named to honor Sockalexis. But, eventually coming across some contrary statements, I did some research and learned more of the truth about him. If anything, he is a somewhat tragic figure, and the fact that his name was mentioned in the press at the time of the Indians name selection change may have had more to do with it being a better story by which to sell newspapers than anything else.

You've heard the modern saying that if you read it on the internet, it must be true? Well 100+ years ago newspapers were pretty much the equivalent of today's internet for getting one's news.

Not interested in your take. Between my brother Rhys and I you would be hard pressed to find anyone on this planet that knows more about Sockalexis so I will take a hard pass. We both became fascinated by his story as young kids growing up in Old Town, Maine… where Sockalexis is from. You have a very myopic view of him and his accomplishments (or in your view the lack thereof) so I will not be engaging with you further on this.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Not interested in your take. Between my brother Rhys and I you would be hard pressed to find anyone on this planet that knows more about Sockalexis so I will take a hard pass. We both became fascinated by his story as young kids growing up in Old Town, Maine… where Sockalexis is from. You have a very myopic view of him and his accomplishments (or in your view the lack thereof) so I will not be engaging with you further on this.

Okay then. I've seen and read lots of information on him, and have viewed his record and such with the Spiders. You just basically said I don't know what I'm talking about with no info, backup, or anything else to explain further. Yes, please don't worry about answering back.

But in response to what you said, remember this, the topic was concerning the naming of the "Cleveland" team! Not a team from Maine, nor one from where he played his college ball, or otherwise. As a life-long Clevelander myself, I can understand using his performance as a Cleveland team member to determine if they should honor him. I am sorry, but why should Cleveland have looked at anything other than his record while in Cleveland for such a determination? His record and situation while in Cleveland was absolutely horrible, and that it is arguably all that should have been relevant. Especially after the team was coming off being named after Lajoie, its manager and star player. Answer yourself this. Why would a team go from honoring a player of Lajoie's talent and record, by having been named after him, to immediately honoring someone with Sockalexis' team history and record? The quick answer is, no one in their right mind would.

Everything I said about him while in Cleveland and his performance as a Spider is factually true and accurate. I do concur with you though, and even said so myself, he was a tragic figure. But for purposes of determining his worth in supposedly honoring him by naming the team the Indians, I think it much more important and relevant to apply a "focused" view to his contributions to just the Cleveland franchise and city. And quite frankly, based on his actual performance and record as a Spider, he is not deserving. And your finding fault with that is what I consider as coming from a "myopic" point of view from you, not me.

And if you don't like what I was saying about him, be sure to not go looking up his story on the New England Historical Society site.