Catch 22 of card grading - is it worth the gamble?

[icurnmedic]

I have actually heard of someone filing with their CC company. I recall it was Beckett,but not sure if I ever heard the outcome.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by icurnmedic

I have actually heard of someone filing with their CC company. I recall it was Beckett,but not sure if I ever heard the outcome.

Hmmmm! Interesting, and if someone were to be successful, very surprised it isn't widely done much more frequently. Too bad we don't know the outcome from this one instance.

[Rich Falvo]

You’re not guaranteed a specific grade. You’re paying for a service. I don’t see how you could argue that you didn’t get what you paid for.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Rich Falvo

You’re not guaranteed a specific grade. You’re paying for a service. I don’t see how you could argue that you didn’t get what you paid for.

No disrespect, but how many threads have we had on here with people questioning TPG grades and how they always seem to be graded more harshly than they should?

How about this, take a TPG to court and as part of your argument, bring along a card graded by them say 10-20 years ago, and put it up against a similar card graded by them say this past year. And then ask them to explain to a jury why the cards may look like they have been graded on completely different standards. Would love to hear what a TPG owner/employee/rep would say on a witness stand, under oath. Would be interesting to see if they would actually admit to maybe having changed their standards over the years, and hear them then maybe explain why they supposedly changed them without having informed any of their customers they've been doing this. And instead of giving their grade "opinions" based on a supposedly constant and unchanging set of fixed standards.

And before you, or anyone else, again says it doesn't matter because it is just an opinion, try telling that to Trump regarding his issues with real estate appraisals in New York. Those appraisals are nothing more than opinions also. And you can't really claim those issues are different from cards because they involve property values as these TPG grades are what are basically used to determine a card's market value as well. And as we've learned of late over the years, even a slight error and/or difference in a card's TPG given grade can easily equate to a difference of thousands, tens of thousands, or even more dollars, in a card's value.

[Rich Falvo]

Originally Posted by BobC

No disrespect, but how many threads have we had on here with people questioning TPG grades and how they always seem to be graded more harshly than they should?

Too many, and most are premised on the fact that if a card doesn’t get the grade you wanted, that it’s the grader that was wrong. Rarely does the poster consider that they had an overinflated opinion of their card.

The whole premise that a card got the “wrong” grade if the grade is lower than you want is shaky. I bet you could take the five most experienced graders here and give them the same card and it wouldn’t get five identical grades. If the card got two 3s, one 3.5, and two 4s, which of the graders were “wrong”?

[parkplace33]

Circling back, I just felt bad for the dealer. Seemed to be in a bad spot.

As for grading, has it gotten harder on cards? It sometimes feels that way.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Circling back, I just felt bad for the dealer. Seemed to be in a bad spot.

As for grading, has it gotten harder on cards? It sometimes feels that way.

I don't think it has gotten harder.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hmmmm! Interesting, and if someone were to be successful, very surprised it isn't widely done much more frequently. Too bad we don't know the outcome from this one instance.

Well you also have to be willing to never use said company again, so it is a game with consequences.

[oldeboo]

Bob, I understand what you're saying and in a way agree, but companies like SGC and PSA have terms and conditions that outline what they offer. They both have your example of grading standards today versus 10-20 years ago covered. Below are two quotes taken from their websites:

SGC
"Customer acknowledges and agrees the grading and/or authentication of items requires the exercise of individual judgment and professional opinion, which is subjective in nature, and can change from time to time. Therefore, SGC makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to Customer for the grade or determination of authenticity assigned by SGC to any item."

PSA
"Customer acknowledges that such grading involves individual judgments that are subjective and require the exercise of professional opinions, which can change from time to time. Therefore, except as provided below, Customer agrees that PSA shall have no liability to Customer or any other third party for the grade assigned by PSA to any card."

Some common terms:
Customer acknowledges
Individual judgment
Professional opinion
Subjective
Can change from time to time
No liability

That is grading in a nutshell. Each company gives you two sentences that include the same ideas from the list above. Professional opinions might be partially formed by existing grading standards. However, an opinion, by definition, is "not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." There might be a loose set of grading guidelines, but there is no checklist or proof required. Nowhere in the terms and conditions does it say that a card with a 1/2" crease can't grade higher than a certain grade, while a card with a 1" crease must be graded lower.

Someone that sends in cards for grading is asking for subjective individual judgments and professional opinions that can change from time to time. That is what they get.

Whether grading companies should offer more quantifiable data can be debated, but people don't even seem all that interested in simple sub-grades, let alone a list of data that can be derived from artificial intelligence. For an extra 50 bucks a card, would most people want a 20 point artificial intelligence inspection report that is available online that helps to justify the overall grade? I doubt it.

How many people complain about owning overgraded cards? For many sellers, the large majority of their graded cards are undergraded and none are overgraded. The cards that had to be graded four times are the only accurately graded ones. Only auction houses have overgraded cards. (some degree of sarcasm in the last few sentences)

[BobC]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Bob, I understand what you're saying and in a way agree, but companies like SGC and PSA have terms and conditions that outline what they offer. They both have your example of grading standards today versus 10-20 years ago covered. Below are two quotes taken from their websites:

SGC
"Customer acknowledges and agrees the grading and/or authentication of items requires the exercise of individual judgment and professional opinion, which is subjective in nature, and can change from time to time. Therefore, SGC makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to Customer for the grade or determination of authenticity assigned by SGC to any item."

PSA
"Customer acknowledges that such grading involves individual judgments that are subjective and require the exercise of professional opinions, which can change from time to time. Therefore, except as provided below, Customer agrees that PSA shall have no liability to Customer or any other third party for the grade assigned by PSA to any card."

Some common terms:
Customer acknowledges
Individual judgment
Professional opinion
Subjective
Can change from time to time
No liability

That is grading in a nutshell. Each company gives you two sentences that include the same ideas from the list above. Professional opinions might be partially formed by existing grading standards. However, an opinion, by definition, is "not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." There might be a loose set of grading guidelines, but there is no checklist or proof required. Nowhere in the terms and conditions does it say that a card with a 1/2" crease can't grade higher than a certain grade, while a card with a 1" crease must be graded lower.

Someone that sends in cards for grading is asking for subjective individual judgments and professional opinions that can change from time to time. That is what they get.

Whether grading companies should offer more quantifiable data can be debated, but people don't even seem all that interested in simple sub-grades, let alone a list of data that can be derived from artificial intelligence. For an extra 50 bucks a card, would most people want a 20 point artificial intelligence inspection report that is available online that helps to justify the overall grade? I doubt it.

How many people complain about owning overgraded cards? For many sellers, the large majority of their graded cards are undergraded and none are overgraded. The cards that had to be graded four times are the only accurately graded ones. Only auction houses have overgraded cards. (some degree of sarcasm in the last few sentences)

Trey,

You are absolutely right, but then to my knowledge, no one has really taken on a TPG in court over their terms and conditions, have they? Ask the attorneys on here if terms and conditions on many different types of agreements and contracts always prevail when finally challenged in court.

Both statements you quoted are typical CYA commentary to dissuade anyone from even thinking of ever coming after them for a bad job. But in both of those they refer to the "individual" grader whose opinion is the one that is subjective and can change over time? It almost sounds as if the TPG companies are coming out and saying they only hire these individual experts and that it is these so-called grading experts who make the decisions and not them, so therefore they, the TPGs, have no liability for what these graders do because everything is just these graders' opinions.

First off, if that is true, the TPGs are literally saying they don't really have to stand behind anything they grade because it is all just an opinion. So, if that is the case, why do some TPGs have clauses and conditions where they claim they'll end up buying a card back or pay someone the difference in perceived value because of a supposed error or whatever? Based on what you posted, they shouldn't have to make up or agree to pay for anything, it is all just based on opinions for which they have no liability, right? And yet they do.

But then, who is it that actually trains these expert graders? I'm not aware of any college or vocational institution that provides courses, training, certifications, and so on to create them, are you? Could it possibly be the TPGs who find, hire, and train these grading experts then, and if so, how do they train them on what they're supposed to do to come up with their grades for cards? Could it be that a TPG has a set of fixed, documented standards they use to train their so-called grading experts? But wait a second, I thought these grading experts were just giving THEIR opinions on card grades, not what they're maybe being taught by the TPGs they work for. So, are those grades based on opinions or set standards after all?

And those statements you posted said the individual graders' opinions can change over time, but they said nothing about any standards the TPGs may be using to train them with possibly being changed over time. And opinions and documented standards are two very decidedly different things.

If these TPGs are in fact training these graders, I'm not so sure they can just set the grading standards and then absolve themselves of any and all liability by blindly claiming it is all just an individual grader's opinion. Attorneys can, and do, use very specific words and language to supposedly get across a precise meaning and intent in contracts and agreements, yet we have lawsuits about such things all the time.

I always look back at Clinton's testimony saying, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman!" as the epitome of lawyer-speak and logic. Now go back and re-read those TPG statements you quoted, and really think about exactly what they are actually saying. But in the end, you are correct in that it seems most all the people in our hobby only care about a card's grade, and otherwise just let the TPGs get away with doing what they want. But just because it isn't likely to be changing anytime soon, it doesn't mean it wouldn't possibly be better for the hobby if it did change.

[GasHouseGang]

I was wondering about the resubmission of cards. I remember reading on another thread that PSA now keeps detailed digital scans of cards they have graded before, and they will know if it is a resubmission. Is this true? I don't know how they could tell for sure if a card was a resubmission. If they can tell, it wouldn't do any good to resubmit a card for regrading, right?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I was wondering about the resubmission of cards. I remember reading on another thread that PSA now keeps detailed digital scans of cards they have graded before, and they will know if it is a resubmission. Is this true? I don't know how they could tell for sure if a card was a resubmission. If they can tell, it wouldn't do any good to resubmit a card for regrading, right?

Supposedly, though they haven't commented on this endeavor.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I was wondering about the resubmission of cards. I remember reading on another thread that PSA now keeps detailed digital scans of cards they have graded before, and they will know if it is a resubmission. Is this true? I don't know how they could tell for sure if a card was a resubmission. If they can tell, it wouldn't do any good to resubmit a card for regrading, right?

Well, they promote that on cards since a few months after they bought Genamint, is when they started scanning those cards and "fingerprinting" the fibers/damage on cards. Now is that every service level from $10 bulk all the way up? Or is it more likely only on cards that are Regular ($100 fee) or higher? And again, only on a year's worth of cards at whatever those levels are. So if you have current lighthouse labels with cert numbers below 40,000,000 or so, I'd be fairly confident that those cards do not fall under the window of high-res scans used for fingerprinting.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by BobC

You are absolutely right, but then to my knowledge, no one has really taken on a TPG in court over their terms and conditions, have they?

There was a guy two years ago who sued Beckett for $500K or so when a BGS number-graded card he bought was identified as altered.
You could look through auburn35's posts on Blowout to see if you can find it. I don't recall seeing an update on it. But yes, choosing the nuclear option of suing a grading company basically cuts you out of ever using that company again.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by swarmee

There was a guy two years ago who sued Beckett for $500K or so when a BGS number-graded card he bought was identified as altered.
You could look through auburn35's posts on Blowout to see if you can find it. I don't recall seeing an update on it. But yes, choosing the nuclear option of suing a grading company basically cuts you out of ever using that company again.

Good luck with that auburn35, lol. Sounds like someone has some money to burn.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Well you also have to be willing to never use said company again, so it is a game with consequences.

That is true.