Hey, pennant guys

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Anyone seen he latest REA auction that just opened for bidding?

some AMAZING pennants in there. Well outside of my price range but...just...WOW

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...searchin=title


G@ry G01db3rg

As a general rule, the less we have to deal with the government, the better life is. Filing a USPS claim is certainly no exception.

With regard to REA, I would love to know what the full spine looks like on that oversized Red Sox pennant with the “Boston mini” attached. I know the bottom tassels are probably missing, but wonder if the spine is all there.

It would be quite an expensive proposition to win it, separate the two, and potentially be disappointed at what lies underneath. Sure wish REA could un-frame it and provide some more revealing photos!

[thetahat]

Now here’s a pennant mystery for our pal Kyle.

You might have seen before the late 40s/early 50s Tigers “Johnny Groth” pennant. Why Johnny Groth? He seemed like an okay player - he played OF - but only 5.8 career WAR, just an ordinary regular. No such pennant for George Kell, Vic Wertz or another half dozen better players. Odd.

Well Marc tipped me off to this weird 1960 Pirates pennant on eBay. Not a full team scroll but just the lineup … who is playing shortstop? “Groth”.

Now wait a minute. The SS was Dick Groat, not Groth. Johnny had finished his career as a reserve earlier that year … for Detroit. Never played for Pittsburgh.

So what is it about Johnny Groth? Well one thing is very clear: these are both WGN pennants. Same style and the font used for player names is a giveaway.

Pulling up Johnny Groth’s SABR bio, you learn he was born and raised in Chicago, and his father was an electrotype salesman. So … looks like hometown boy got some extra love!

Johnny passed away last August at age 95 … had 28 grandchildren …

[thetahat]

Also, who the heck is playing second? Two M’s in Mazeroski???

[bocca001]

What a funky cool pennant. Never even noticed that it was Groth and not Groat.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Now here’s a pennant mystery for our pal Kyle.

Hmmm, never seen this Tigers pennant with the Groth variation. Really weird. I wonder if maybe they added his name, after-the-fact, as part of ... a promotion he may have appeared at?? I dunno. That's really weird.

Maybe he was a fan favorite, and the Tigers hosted a "Johnny Groth Day," and they made a limited run of these for the occasion?

As to the 1960 one, that's an even weirder pennant. Ugly, too. I'm not sure it's by WGN ... other than the name "GROTH" it looks unlike other known WGN baseball pennants post-1958, many of which (but not all) were polychromatic and featured their Day-Glo paint scheme.

What's the significance of, "Law Friend Face"??

[bocca001]

Pitchers: Vern Law, Bob Friend, Roy Face

Possible source/day for the Detroit pennant:

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/apri...marching-home/

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Pitchers: Vern Law, Bob Friend, Roy Face

Possible source/day for the Detroit pennant:

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/apri...marching-home/

That’s great info! Thanks Marc. Apparently he was very popular.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Hmmm, never seen this Tigers pennant with the Groth variation. Really weird. I wonder if maybe they added his name, after-the-fact, as part of ... a promotion he may have appeared at?? I dunno. That's really weird.

Maybe he was a fan favorite, and the Tigers hosted a "Johnny Groth Day," and they made a limited run of these for the occasion?

As to the 1960 one, that's an even weirder pennant. Ugly, too. I'm not sure it's by WGN ... other than the name "GROTH" it looks unlike other known WGN baseball pennants post-1958, many of which (but not all) were polychromatic and featured their Day-Glo paint scheme.

What's the significance of, "Law Friend Face"??

Oh I’m fairly certain it’s WGN. Or let’s say that I’m certain it was made by the same designers who made WGN pennants in the 40s and early 50s. Maybe another company signed them as free agents LOL. Spine/tassels/stitching all resemble the style of the Groth Tigers pennant and others. Thin tassels that are same color as the body, closer towards the center than corners, thick spine, white single stitch thread. Here’s a ‘44 Browns pennant with the exact same handwritten letter font. And then of course there’s the weird Groth connection.

They made a not too uncommon ‘59 Chisox scroll pennant in all-white print. I will say that even by the early 50s they stopped using tassels on most pennants and the spine was narrower. So it’s odd that this resembles their earlier ones. I still think that points to simply having multiple styles.

Another Groth related oddity is that I am almost certain that WGN made a 1946 dated pennant with roster, which was Groth’s rookie year. Had only 9 ABs.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

As a general rule, the less we have to deal with the government, the better life is. Filing a USPS claim is certainly no exception.

With regard to REA, I would love to know what the full spine looks like on that oversized Red Sox pennant with the “Boston mini” attached. I know the bottom tassels are probably missing, but wonder if the spine is all there.

It would be quite an expensive proposition to win it, separate the two, and potentially be disappointed at what lies underneath. Sure wish REA could un-frame it and provide some more revealing photos!

What's the deal on that? Was it a thing to stitch pennants together at weird angles in the early 20th century? And then frame it like that?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

What's the deal on that? Was it a thing to stitch pennants together at weird angles in the early 20th century? And then frame it like that?

I'm guessing it was part of a patchwork quilt, and was removed in that way. As for the reason the Boston mini was never separated from the oversized pennant, one can only guess. Is it covering up a significant flaw or missing portion of the spine? That's the frustration.

And the crazy framing/matting job that accommodates the odd shape and bent tip of the Mini is simply bizarre. Makes me think there was a good reason for not separating the two.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...?itemid=105013

[vintagesportscollector]

Question for the group...were the College Pennants offered from the coupons and advertisements below, the same as the B54 large rectangular felts?
I ask because the B54s were closer to 13x28", and the pennants advertised by Fatima are listed as 12x32". Were there different Fatima College Pennants? If so, I am not sure I am aware of them.
Thanks
Joe

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by vintagesportscollector

Question for the group...were the College Pennants offered from the coupons and advertisements below, the same as the B54 large rectangular felts?
I ask because the B54s were closer to 13x28", and the pennants advertised by Fatima are listed as 12x32". Were there different Fatima College Pennants? If so, I am not sure I am aware of them.
Thanks
Joe

I came across this add from 1910 stating the the Fatima pennants were a "hand-sewn felt pennant", which which would seem to indicate they are not the B54 rugs, but rather your traditional college pennants with sewn on letters. If that's the case, I have never seen a tag or marking on a large pennant from Fatima or Liggett & Meyers. Have others?

I wonder where L&M sourced their pennants, and if they ever put their own tag or stamping on the reverse. Since they offered for over 100 colleges, etc., it would seem they sourced from a larger pennant manaufacturer.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by vintagesportscollector

I came across this add from 1910 stating the the Fatima pennants were a "hand-sewn felt pennant", which which would seem to indicate they are not the B54 rugs, but rather your traditional college pennants with sewn on letters. If that's the case, I have never seen a tag or marking on a large pennant from Fatima or Liggett & Meyers. Have others?

I wonder where L&M sourced their pennants, and if they ever put their own tag or stamping on the reverse. Since they offered for over 100 colleges, etc., it would seem they sourced from a larger pennant manufacturer.

Joe, I completely agree with you. Until your earlier post, I had always assumed that the promo items offered by Fatima Cigarettes ca. 1910 were limited to pennant-like items, e.g., leather squares embossed with an image of a school's pennant, or felt "rugs" with an illustration of same. I had no reason to think they offered full-size, sewed letter pennants. Apparently, they did, as per these advertisements you've unearthed. Nice work!

As to your latest post, I too am now wondering where they sourced their pennants from. My best guess is these promo pennants had no mark at all on them. If they had read "Smoke Fatima Cigarettes" on the reverse, we'd have surely come across such a distinctive mark.

It's an odd thing to have a promo pennant series with no branding whatsoever thereon. Isn't the whole point to promote sales of their products? The Ferguson Bakery (BF3) promo pennant series from ca. 1916 was mostly unbranded; however, their premiums had at least a maker's mark on the reverse (Bradford & Co.). On the other hand, The Detroit Free Press promo pennant series from ca. 1913 included a label on the reverse reading "Detroit Free Press." Adding a label or screening an extra mark would have added to the production costs, so maybe that's why Fatima didn't mark their pennants with their branding, as they did with their premium "rugs" (which could be easily stamped with their branding)?

If you're curious, here's the premium "rug" Fatima issued for Notre Dame....

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Joe, I completely agree with you. Until your earlier post, I had always assumed that the promo items offered by Fatima Cigarettes ca. 1910 were limited to pennant-like items, e.g., leather squares embossed with an image of a school's pennant, or felt "rugs" with an illustration of same. I had no reason to think they offered full-size, sewed letter pennants. Apparently, they did, as per these advertisements you've unearthed. Nice work!

As to your latest post, I too am now wondering where they sourced their pennants from. My best guess is these promo pennants had no mark at all on them. If they had read "Smoke Fatima Cigarettes" on the reverse, we'd have surely come across such a distinctive mark.

It's an odd thing to have a promo pennant series with no branding whatsoever thereon. Isn't the whole point to promote sales of their products? The Ferguson Bakery (BF3) promo pennant series from ca. 1916 was mostly unbranded; however, their premiums had at least a maker's mark on the reverse (Bradford & Co.). On the other hand, The Detroit Free Press promo pennant series from ca. 1913 included a label on the reverse reading "Detroit Free Press." Adding a label or screening an extra mark would have added to the production costs, so maybe that's why Fatima didn't mark their pennants with their branding, as they did with their premium "rugs" (which could be easily stamped with their branding)?

If you're curious, here's the premium "rug" Fatima issued for Notre Dame....

WOW very nice looking "Rug" actually look good hanging on a wall

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Joe, I completely agree with you. Until your earlier post, I had always assumed that the promo items offered by Fatima Cigarettes ca. 1910 were limited to pennant-like items, e.g., leather squares embossed with an image of a school's pennant, or felt "rugs" with an illustration of same. I had no reason to think they offered full-size, sewed letter pennants. Apparently, they did...

Thanks Domer. Given the American Tobacco Company's (ATC) enormously broad and deep reach within all the colleges and universities, it would seem many would take advantage of the premium coupon offer. Seems to suggest that a very large proportion of the college sewn letter pennants that remain today, were actually distributed through the ATC.

Given the extensive amount of smoking that took place then, it would be very quick and easy for a student to amass 25 coupons.

Here's a piece on one of the typical smokers that happened at Cornell (there were many throughout the year), where 1,200 cans of tobacco and 30,000 Fatima cigarettes were donated by the American Tobacco Company - they had their hooks into all these students.