T206 group of 350-only Series NO-PRINTS....CB, EPDG, OM, PB

[tedzan]

Claude Rossman is an interesting guy. His MLB career was a short one (5 years). And, doing a T206 run of his cards should be easy
since he was printed with only 6 backs. Not so, though, his 1910 COUPON and his TOLSTOI are very tough.
For example....I think there are only 2 known 1910 COUPON cards of him.... mine and Rob McKenzie's (both ungraded). And, as far
as I know only one TOLSTOI is known.

I need only the TOLSTOI to complete this run. The scan of my Rossman from my SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set has disappeared.









TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Rossman is one of 23 subjects in the 350-only Series that were not printed with the group of
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 - BROAD LEAF 350 - CYCLE 350 - DRUM subjects (190 cards).

Here is the list of these 23 subjects in the 350-only series which are A - B - C - D no-prints....

Barger
G. Brown (Washington)
Byrne
Collins (Minneapolis)
Cross
Dahlen (portrait--Brooklyn)
Demmitt (New York)
Joe Doyle
Elberfeld (portrait--Washington)
Evans
Gray
Groom
Kleinow (catching-New York)
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Mattern
McLean
Mowery
O'Hara (New York)
Puttman
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rossman
Shannon
F. Smith (Chicago--white cap)


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[HobokenJon]

Ted, I’m curious to know . . . What is your theory for why Dahlen (Brooklyn), George Brown (Washington) and Elberfeld (Washington) should be classified as part of the 350-only series?

Each comes with only one nonstandard back — Old Mill. They don’t come with any nonstandard backs that are exclusive to the 350-only series, such as Cycle 350 or American Beauty 350 (w/frame). Each is a variation of a card that appears with a Sovereign 150 back.

My working theory has always been that these three cards are part of the 150-350 series but don’t appear with any 150 backs. Is this theory not equally plausible in your view?

[HobokenJon]

An addendum …. I suppose I should clarify that Cycle 350 backs technically aren’t “exclusive” to the 350-only series, because the red Cobb and other “super prints” also come with Cycle 350 backs. But I’m sure you get what I mean.

[HobokenJon]

An addendum to the addendum . . . and ditto for American Beauty 350 (w/frame) backs.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

Ted, I’m curious to know . . . What is your theory for why Dahlen (Brooklyn), George Brown (Washington) and Elberfeld (Washington) should be classified as part of the 350-only series?

Each comes with only one nonstandard back — Old Mill. They don’t come with any nonstandard backs that are exclusive to the 350-only series, such as Cycle 350 or American Beauty 350 (w/frame). Each is a variation of a card that appears with a Sovereign 150 back.

My working theory has always been that these three cards are part of the 150-350 series but don’t appear with any 150 backs. Is this theory not equally plausible in your view?

Jon

This topic has been discussed before. And it becomes complicated. You and I could spend hours trying to convince each other.

My answer for you to consider the following Demmitt and O'Hara examples......

The New York versions of Demmitt & O'Hara are 350-only series guys. What series do you say the St. Louis versions are in ?

Most guys will say "350-only" series. Just like your example of Dahlen, in which only the Team in their caption was changed.

However, I say NO ! The St. Louis versions were printed in the 350/460 series. And, why do I say this....well, you know me.
I am a "numbers" guy. The Population Report data of (200 - 300) of St. Louis cards of Demmitt or O'Hara compares with the
350/460 series subjects with POLAR BEAR backs. The numbers of POLAR BEAR subjects in the 350-only or 460-only series are
considerably less than 200 - 300.






Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards (1912)




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jon

This topic has been discussed before. And it becomes complicated. You and I could spend hours trying to convince each other.

My answer for you to consider the following Demmitt and O'Hara examples......

The New York versions of Demmitt & O'Hara are 350-only series guys. What series do you say the St. Louis versions are in ?

Most guys will say "350-only" series. Just like your example of Dahlen, in which only the Team in their caption was changed.

However, I say NO ! The St. Louis versions were printed in the 350/460 series. And, why do I say this....well, you know me.
I am a "numbers" guy. The Population Report data of (200 - 300) of St. Louis cards of Demmitt or O'Hara compares with the
350/460 series subjects with POLAR BEAR backs. The numbers of POLAR BEAR subjects in the 350-only or 460-only series are
considerably less than 200 - 300.






Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards (1912)




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted you're not looking at the big picture with your numbers, Demmitt and O'hara are probably 10x more likely to be graded than the rest of the Polar Bear commons and more than 10x more likely to be crossed over or cracked out and re-graded.

You yourself have said most of your cards are not graded but both your Demmit and O'hara are, how many of your other Polar Bears are graded?

[G1911]

It would be absolutely shocking if Demmitt and O’Hara were graded at the same % rate as others in their print run. It’s like comparing the POP of a common 52 Topps to a 52 Topps Mays. Of course the big cards are represented in POP reports at a higher rate.

[RCMcKenzie]

I agree with Ted that Rossman is hard to find for Coupon type 1. There is only 1 card graded by PSA, which I own, SGC pop shows only 1, probably Richard's, and the MET has a raw one from Burdick, and Ted's, so, I think, only 4 copies are known.

I'm not a T206 expert, but O'Hara and Demmitt with Polar Bear backs, are very common, like a 1952 Topps Willie Mays.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jon

This topic has been discussed before. And it becomes complicated. You and I could spend hours trying to convince each other.

My answer for you to consider the following Demmitt and O'Hara examples......

The New York versions of Demmitt & O'Hara are 350-only series guys. What series do you say the St. Louis versions are in ?

Most guys will say "350-only" series. Just like your example of Dahlen, in which only the Team in their caption was changed.

However, I say NO ! The St. Louis versions were printed in the 350/460 series. And, why do I say this....well, you know me.
I am a "numbers" guy.The Population Report data of (200 - 300) of St. Louis cards of Demmitt or O'Hara compares with the
350/460 series subjects with POLAR BEAR backs. The numbers of POLAR BEAR subjects in the 350-only or 460-only series are
considerably less than 200 - 300.




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Sweet Caporals with factory sheet numbers

Ames (portrait)
Bates
Beaumont
Clarke (portrait)
Clarke JJ
Cobb (bat on)
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Dooin
Durham
Gilbert
Griffith (portrait)
Hemphill
Herzog
Johnson (portrait)
Jones, Fielder (portrait)
Keeler (with bat)
Killian (pitching)
Mathewson (portrait)
McGraw (portrait no cap)
Merkle (portrait)
Overall (portrait)
Seymour (batting)
Shipke
Spade
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stovall
Tannehill (L. on front)
Wagner (bat on left shoulder)


Blue Old Mills

Elberfeld (Washington portrait)
Powell
Walsh

100% of these are print group 1 subjects


Have you found the non 150/350 subjects that you say are out there Ted?




As I'm sure you know, the large Factory 30 (or Factory 25) notation simply differentiates which SWEET CAP factory the cards on a given sheet (when cut up) will be shipped to.
Hints of the #25 or #30 notation has been found on cards across the 5 series. I don't see what that notation has to do with anything in this matter.


Jon

Back in 2011, a Net54 member posted Rhoades (right arm extended) SWEET CAP card with the hint of large Factory # on its edge. This card is strictly a 350-only subject.

And, there are more out there. I've been collecting T206's since 1981, and trust me, I have had and have seen over 50,000 of them.

I will see if I can come up with more like the above mentioned one in the 350-only series (or 350/460 series, or the 460-only series).


TED Z

[Luke]

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

Ted, I’m curious to know . . . What is your theory for why Dahlen (Brooklyn), George Brown (Washington) and Elberfeld (Washington) should be classified as part of the 350-only series?

Each comes with only one nonstandard back — Old Mill. They don’t come with any nonstandard backs that are exclusive to the 350-only series, such as Cycle 350 or American Beauty 350 (w/frame). Each is a variation of a card that appears with a Sovereign 150 back.

My working theory has always been that these three cards are part of the 150-350 series but don’t appear with any 150 backs. Is this theory not equally plausible in your view?

Those three are 150-350 series and four in the list are 350-460 (Doyle, Kleinow, Rhoades and Smith). I bet that list was from something slightly different and was a copy and paste error or something.

This topic is really interesting. We'll probably never know why poses ended up in these little groups, but I sure would like to know!