T206 group of 350-only Series NO-PRINTS....CB, EPDG, OM, PB

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

Ted, I’m curious to know . . . What is your theory for why Dahlen (Brooklyn), George Brown (Washington) and Elberfeld (Washington) should be classified as part of the 350-only series?

Each comes with only one nonstandard back — Old Mill. They don’t come with any nonstandard backs that are exclusive to the 350-only series, such as Cycle 350 or American Beauty 350 (w/frame). Each is a variation of a card that appears with a Sovereign 150 back.

My working theory has always been that these three cards are part of the 150-350 series but don’t appear with any 150 backs. Is this theory not equally plausible in your view?

Jon

This topic has been discussed before. And it becomes complicated. You and I could spend hours trying to convince each other.

My answer for you to consider the following Demmitt and O'Hara examples......

The New York versions of Demmitt & O'Hara are 350-only series guys. What series do you say the St. Louis versions are in ?

Most guys will say "350-only" series. Just like your example of Dahlen, in which only the Team in their caption was changed.

However, I say NO ! The St. Louis versions were printed in the 350/460 series. And, why do I say this....well, you know me.
I am a "numbers" guy. The Population Report data of (200 - 300) of St. Louis cards of Demmitt or O'Hara compares with the
350/460 series subjects with POLAR BEAR backs. The numbers of POLAR BEAR subjects in the 350-only or 460-only series are
considerably less than 200 - 300.






Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards (1912)




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jon

This topic has been discussed before. And it becomes complicated. You and I could spend hours trying to convince each other.

My answer for you to consider the following Demmitt and O'Hara examples......

The New York versions of Demmitt & O'Hara are 350-only series guys. What series do you say the St. Louis versions are in ?

Most guys will say "350-only" series. Just like your example of Dahlen, in which only the Team in their caption was changed.

However, I say NO ! The St. Louis versions were printed in the 350/460 series. And, why do I say this....well, you know me.
I am a "numbers" guy. The Population Report data of (200 - 300) of St. Louis cards of Demmitt or O'Hara compares with the
350/460 series subjects with POLAR BEAR backs. The numbers of POLAR BEAR subjects in the 350-only or 460-only series are
considerably less than 200 - 300.






Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards (1912)




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted you're not looking at the big picture with your numbers, Demmitt and O'hara are probably 10x more likely to be graded than the rest of the Polar Bear commons and more than 10x more likely to be crossed over or cracked out and re-graded.

You yourself have said most of your cards are not graded but both your Demmit and O'hara are, how many of your other Polar Bears are graded?

[G1911]

It would be absolutely shocking if Demmitt and O’Hara were graded at the same % rate as others in their print run. It’s like comparing the POP of a common 52 Topps to a 52 Topps Mays. Of course the big cards are represented in POP reports at a higher rate.

[RCMcKenzie]

I agree with Ted that Rossman is hard to find for Coupon type 1. There is only 1 card graded by PSA, which I own, SGC pop shows only 1, probably Richard's, and the MET has a raw one from Burdick, and Ted's, so, I think, only 4 copies are known.

I'm not a T206 expert, but O'Hara and Demmitt with Polar Bear backs, are very common, like a 1952 Topps Willie Mays.

[G1911]

They are all fairly common, but over represented in the pop reports because they are $$ cards. People do not grade commons at the same rate. We can see this in every single set.

[RCMcKenzie]

Greg, I guess what I'm trying to say, is that Willie Mays, is a money card, and O'Hara and Demmitt with a Polar Bear back, should not really be money cards. My recollection is that I paid less for this T214, than what a T206 Demmitt with a Polar Bear back goes for, to me it's just a Polar Bear common.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Greg, I guess what I'm trying to say, is that Willie Mays, is a money card, and O'Hara and Demmitt with a Polar Bear back, should not really be money cards. My recollection is that I paid less for this T214, than what a T206 Demmitt with a Polar Bear back goes for, to me it's just a Polar Bear common.

Rob

Your post reminds me of.....

In one of my "Hybrid T206" sets, I chose not to spend the big $$$$ for a Demmitt St Louis, so I filled the space for Demmitt with this T213-2 card of him for only $100





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Greg, I guess what I'm trying to say, is that Willie Mays, is a money card, and O'Hara and Demmitt with a Polar Bear back, should not really be money cards. My recollection is that I paid less for this T214, than what a T206 Demmitt with a Polar Bear back goes for, to me it's just a Polar Bear common.

Personally, I agree it shouldn't be a money card. It's just a PB O'Hara. But this opinion I have isn't material to the fact that these are big $$ cards and are much, much more likely to be graded and thus overrepresented in the pop report. It is much more profitable to grade them. Comparing O'Hara's POP to a random common's POP is not even close to an apples to apples comparison, for the exact same reason there are far more #261 Mays graded than #260 Castiglione and #262 Trucks even though we know they all had the same print run on the series 5 sheet. If we use this logic being used for the PB O'Hara and Demmitt, then the Mays must be a quintuple print because it is 500% more common in the POP, which we all know is absurd and false. It's because it's a money card and much more profitable to grade. We can use an example from practically any set. $$ cards are graded more often, comparing a $$ card to a random common in the POP is not a reasonable comparison or a valid data point.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jon

This topic has been discussed before. And it becomes complicated. You and I could spend hours trying to convince each other.

My answer for you to consider the following Demmitt and O'Hara examples......

The New York versions of Demmitt & O'Hara are 350-only series guys. What series do you say the St. Louis versions are in ?

Most guys will say "350-only" series. Just like your example of Dahlen, in which only the Team in their caption was changed.

However, I say NO ! The St. Louis versions were printed in the 350/460 series. And, why do I say this....well, you know me.
I am a "numbers" guy.The Population Report data of (200 - 300) of St. Louis cards of Demmitt or O'Hara compares with the
350/460 series subjects with POLAR BEAR backs. The numbers of POLAR BEAR subjects in the 350-only or 460-only series are
considerably less than 200 - 300.




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Sweet Caporals with factory sheet numbers

Ames (portrait)
Bates
Beaumont
Clarke (portrait)
Clarke JJ
Cobb (bat on)
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Dooin
Durham
Gilbert
Griffith (portrait)
Hemphill
Herzog
Johnson (portrait)
Jones, Fielder (portrait)
Keeler (with bat)
Killian (pitching)
Mathewson (portrait)
McGraw (portrait no cap)
Merkle (portrait)
Overall (portrait)
Seymour (batting)
Shipke
Spade
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stovall
Tannehill (L. on front)
Wagner (bat on left shoulder)


Blue Old Mills

Elberfeld (Washington portrait)
Powell
Walsh

100% of these are print group 1 subjects


Have you found the non 150/350 subjects that you say are out there Ted?




As I'm sure you know, the large Factory 30 (or Factory 25) notation simply differentiates which SWEET CAP factory the cards on a given sheet (when cut up) will be shipped to.
Hints of the #25 or #30 notation has been found on cards across the 5 series. I don't see what that notation has to do with anything in this matter.


Jon

Back in 2011, a Net54 member posted Rhoades (right arm extended) SWEET CAP card with the hint of large Factory # on its edge. This card is strictly a 350-only subject.

And, there are more out there. I've been collecting T206's since 1981, and trust me, I have had and have seen over 50,000 of them.

I will see if I can come up with more like the above mentioned one in the 350-only series (or 350/460 series, or the 460-only series).


TED Z