WW3 Please SAY NO!

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

You can both hate innocent people dying and question things.

Imagine if there were this much outcry against Obama when he let Russia take Crimea (and Georgia, or was that Bush?).

Apples to oranges. The annexation of Crimea was done under the guise of a “separatist” movement and Russian forces involved did so without flag on their shoulder. There was outcry. It lead to original sanctions and Russia’s eventual expulsion from the G8. The rest is shoulda woulda coulda.


Imagine if the US were to invade sovereign countries under the guise of "saving them", and kill innocent people. Oh wait...



Y'all aren't wrong for hating war. But before you go calling people "Russian stooges" or insinuating others are terrorist apologists, you should be able to answer every question possible.

Why is Zelenskyy being dubbed a hero when all he has done is refuse to negotiate with Russia, then force 18-60 year old makes to stay and fight? He takes opportunistic photos that are nothing but propaganda, yet claims to be on the front lines.

Dude is a hero, but thatÂ’s just my opinion. You claim he refuses to negotiate with Russia is categorically false in every aspect. He has called for direct talks with Putin which so far the Russia leader has refused. His government has twice met for negotiations with Russian leaders. He has been in direct contact with multiple world leaders acting as intermediaries between the two sides including must recently Israeli Prime Minister Bennett.
That claim of yours is idiotically false on all accounts.

He absolutely did close the borders to men 18-60 in the event of needed conscription. True. He did that as the commander in chief of the Ukrainian military because (you know) theyÂ’re currently being invaded (you need a link for that too)?


DudeÂ’s the leader of the Democratic government under invasion (once again you require a primary source?) Of course heÂ’s not trying to flank column with a Javelin. That propaganda you call him out on is letting his country know heÂ’s still there for them and not fleeing in the night - considering you know they are rising together to fend off an invading force.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...r-plant-putin/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews...%3fid=83226054



Speaking of Zelenskyy, how closely is he tied to Burisma, the same company that has Hunter Biden, CIA people, etc. all on their board? The owner of the network that produced his show which he rose to fame through is on that board as well.

What is GodÂ’s name does any of that have to do with another country INVADING a sovereign country to overthrow itÂ’s democratically elected government. ItÂ’s also possible he has Dollywood passes. How close is he to Folly Parton? Know one knows!

Even then and clap with me as I this YOU. DONT. INVADE. A. SOVEREIGN. COUNTRY. AND. BOMB. THEIR. CIVIALIANS. BECAUSE. YOU. DONÂ’T. LIKE. WHO. THEIR. LEADER. IS.

ThatÂ’s article 2 section 4 of the UN bylaws and charter if need reference.

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter/full-text




What does Nordstrom 2 have to do with this?

CLAP with me and read that last part again.

If what Putin is doing is so atrocious, why haven't US/NATO forces stepped in? If we don't want war but want to protect innocent people, why did we declare war via sanctions and leave the innocent people all but defenseless?

Because anyone with even elementary knowledge of Geopolitics knows a lethal dispute between NATO and Russia carries a large chance of nuclear response for either or both sides. Literally my 11 year old understands that. NATO keeps “calculated ambiguity” to whether or not they maintain a “use first” doctrine in the event of a lethal dispute - but without doubt the chances they are tactically used increases exponentially if the two sides met on the battlefield.


https://www.armscontrol.org/act/1999...nale-first-use



Have people forgotten the level of corruption and meddling the US has done in Ukraine? Or Soros's love of Ukraine?

I honestly donÂ’t think the give two shits about about this idiotic ramble considering they are being invaded and having their sovereignty compromised. Could be wrong. They could sit around a camp fire and cook up all kinds of X-Files BS, but just an educated guess is they just want the 100,000+ invading troops, artillery leveling their cities, missiles killing many, and hired mercenaries to GTFO.

Why did Obama/Biden allow the Clintons to sell uranium to the Russians?

For the life of me I donÂ’t have a clue what this has do with a nation invading and trying to overthrow a democratically elected government of a sovereign nation.

Why did Biden kill our energy independence, only to buy Russian energy exports?

The same.

I'm focused on our involvement in this "conflict". Our government is as much to blame as anyone, yet I don't hear any of that coming from the MSM/news.

Read slowly. Our. Government. Did. Not. Invade. The. Sovereign. Nation. Of. Ukraine.

Answered above.

[Shoeless Moe]

Well found Putin & Zelensky's 1st meeting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du2DjJEtc0k

[jgannon]

It's hard to have a face-saving way out of this, but something must be done. The sad truth is, the U.S. and Ukraine should have agreed to Ukraine being a neutral state a long time ago. But Russian hysteria, "Putin bad" thinking, and self-defeating U.S. delusions of hegemony kept that from happening. If they had simply dealt with Russia and engaged in the world of realpolitik, the invasion never would have happened. As far as admiring Zelensky, all I have to say, is that he is not going to defeat the Russians, and the U.S. and NATO are not going to directly fight the Russians. The U.S. encouraged Zelensky to play a dangerous game and it blew up in their faces. The U.S. never had any intentions of backing Ukraine up militarily.

The longer Zelensky holds out, the more his people are going to die. He may be trying to negotiate, but anything short of a promise to remain a neutral state will fail. Putin is not going to back down now. With some countries contemplating sending planes and Russia being on nuclear alert as well as stating that sanctions are tantamount to an act of war, the situation is getting more and more dangerous. Zelensky is frankly being selfish and self-defeating by asking the U.S. to establish a no-fly zone and not reading the handwriting on the wall.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by jgannon

It's hard to have a face-saving way out of this, but something must be done. The sad truth is, the U.S. and Ukraine should have agreed to Ukraine being a neutral state a long time ago. But Russian hysteria, "Putin bad" thinking, and self-defeating U.S. delusions of hegemony kept that from happening. If they had simply dealt with Russia and engaged in the world of realpolitik, the invasion never would have happened. As far as admiring Zelensky, all I have to say, is that he is not going to defeat the Russians, and the U.S. and NATO are not going to directly fight the Russians. The U.S. encouraged Zelensky to play a dangerous game and it blew up in their faces. The U.S. never had any intentions of backing Ukraine up militarily.

The longer Zelensky holds out, the more his people are going to die. He may be trying to negotiate, but anything short of a promise to remain a neutral state will fail. Putin is not going to back down now. With some countries contemplating sending planes and Russia being on nuclear alert as well as stating that sanctions are tantamount to an act of war, the situation is getting more and more dangerous. Zelensky is frankly being selfish and self-defeating by asking the U.S. to establish a no-fly zone and not reading the handwriting on the wall.

If it were America under siege from a larger invading nation would you accept our capitulation? Or would you fight and possibly die for your sovereign independence. If you wouldn’t then that’s fine, if you would however in one breath be willing to fight for the United States right to govern itself democratically and in the last breath call Zelensky selfish for doing just that - then you you’re completely missing the point.

Our country was built on the blood of people who died for our sovereign independence. Expecting another nation to hide under the covers when their moment arises is cowardice.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

If it were America under siege from a larger invading nation would you accept our capitulation? Or would you fight and possibly die for your sovereign independence. If you wouldn’t then that’s fine, if you would however in one breath be willing to fight for the United States right to govern itself democratically and in the last breath call Zelensky selfish for doing just that - then you you’re completely missing the point.

Our country was built on the blood of people who died for our sovereign independence. Expecting another nation to hide under the covers when their moment arises is cowardice.

Ukraine was ostensibly "free" although it is a very corrupt country and neo-Nazis groups are a force to be reckoned within the country. By declaring neutrality, Ukraine may not have become a part of NATO, but it would have actually safeguarded it's security. They have brought on the very thing they had hoped to keep from happening. That's why elected leaders should be learned in history and politics, actually having a background for leading. Zelensky was a comedian. At any rate, Zelensky should have acknowledged the reality of the situation and avoided trouble with his nuclear power neighbor. His people are dying for his mistake. His calls for a no-fly zone show how delusional and out of touch with reality he is.

[jgannon]

I'll just add that negotiating a peace is not surrender or cowardice.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by jgannon

Ukraine was ostensibly "free" although it is a very corrupt country and neo-Nazis groups are a force to be reckoned within the country. By declaring neutrality, Ukraine may not have become a part of NATO, but it would have actually safeguarded it's security. They have brought on the very thing they had hoped to keep from happening. That's why elected leaders should be learned in history and politics, actually having a background for leading. Zelensky was a comedian. At any rate, Zelensky should have acknowledged the reality of the situation and avoided trouble with his nuclear power neighbor. His people are dying for his mistake. His calls for a no-fly zone show how delusional and out of touch with reality he is.

124 word response and you didn’t even come close to answering the question. If America’s sovereign right to govern itself was challenged by an invading force would you fight to defend (or expect those capable) it or would you accept an outside power dictating your governance? Don’t slyly evade the question like a corrupt politician. Answer it.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

124 word response and you didn’t even come close to answering the question. If America’s sovereign right to govern itself was challenged by an invading force would you fight to defend (or expect those capable) it or would you accept an outside power dictating your governance? Don’t slyly evade the question like a corrupt politician. Answer it.

Bugger off. Russia doesn't have to remain an occupying force. Russia wants Ukraine to remain a neutral state.

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by jgannon

Ukraine was ostensibly "free" although it is a very corrupt country and neo-Nazis groups are a force to be reckoned within the country. By declaring neutrality, Ukraine may not have become a part of NATO, but it would have actually safeguarded it's security. They have brought on the very thing they had hoped to keep from happening. That's why elected leaders should be learned in history and politics, actually having a background for leading. Zelensky was a comedian. At any rate, Zelensky should have acknowledged the reality of the situation and avoided trouble with his nuclear power neighbor. His people are dying for his mistake. His calls for a no-fly zone show how delusional and out of touch with reality he is.

I'm sure glad people don't think we are a "free" country with a recently stolen election. Also, I'm sure glad we don't have corruption in our country. Lastly, it's a blessing that we don't have neo-Nazis groups in this country, I don't know, holding rallies. Because if we did, people would think other countries would be justified in freeing us by military force.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

I'm sure glad people don't think we are a "free" country with a recently stolen election. Also, I'm sure glad we don't have corruption in our country. Lastly, it's a blessing that we don't have neo-Nazis groups in this country, I don't know, holding rallies. Because if we did, people would think other countries would be justified in freeing us by military force.

How you doing AustinJoeMcCarthy?

Russia invaded Ukraine because of encirclement by NATO and the threat of the addition of Ukraine to that alliance. As far as neo-nazis go, in Ukraine they have committed atrocities in the east.

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by jgannon

Ukraine was ostensibly "free" although it is a very corrupt country and neo-Nazis groups are a force to be reckoned within the country. By declaring neutrality, Ukraine may not have become a part of NATO, but it would have actually safeguarded it's security. They have brought on the very thing they had hoped to keep from happening. That's why elected leaders should be learned in history and politics, actually having a background for leading. Zelensky was a comedian. At any rate, Zelensky should have acknowledged the reality of the situation and avoided trouble with his nuclear power neighbor. His people are dying for his mistake. His calls for a no-fly zone show how delusional and out of touch with reality he is.

Hey, what do you know? We agree on something! We should learn from history.

Let's make up a hypothetical situation and see if we can use history to help us formulate a way to react.

Let's assume there's a country ... let's make one up and call it Deutschdirt. Let's say they were really down on their luck and agreed to a treaty. But then later on, they got a leader that didn't like that treaty. He didn't think it was fair. So he decided to annex a bordering country because, I don't know, he claimed Deutschdirters who lived there weren't being treated properly. Let's say that no other country objected. That leader then decided to take over another country and all the other countries said, "Neville mind him taking that country. If we let him have that country, he'll stop."

Is there anything in world history that you can think of that might give us a hint at how this might play out?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Hey, what do you know? We agree on something! We should learn from history.

Let's make up a hypothetical situation and see if we can use history to help us formulate a way to react.

Let's assume there's a country ... let's make one up and call it Deutschdirt. Let's say they were really down on their luck and agreed to a treaty. But then later on, they got a leader that didn't like that treaty. He didn't think it was fair. So he decided to annex a bordering country because, I don't know, he claimed Deutschdirters who lived there weren't being treated properly. Let's say that no other country objected. That leader then decided to take over another country and all the other countries said, "Neville mind him taking that country. If we let him have that country, he'll stop."

Is there anything in world history that you can think of that might give us a hint at how this might play out?

Gee Mike, careful there. Using logic, reason, history, and supposed intelligence doesn't always work with everyone. LOL

The real problem is we're all humans, and it doesn't matter if you're red, white, black, yellow, brown, or green with purple polka dots, there are going to be a--holes among each and every group. Always have been and always will be. We can all imagine and believe we are so intelligent, sophisticated, and developed that we can rise above our often petty, self-absorbed, insecure and instinctual natures and be something other than our true selves. But that will never happen because the human animal (and yes, we are mammals) are really no different than any other creature on this planet, except for the extremely lucky situation where our brains and intelligence have developed to an un-before known level. That still doesn't change the fact that human nature and instincts will always be part of us, no matter what we say, do, or think, and we truly are no better or different from the other creatures on this planet.

As such, there is likely no country or society on this planet that does not have some level of corruption or evil in it and controlling it to some extent, and that includes the US, which has it's more than fair share of abominable acts and treatment of others in our relatively short history, to yet live down. The vast majority of common, everyday people (regardless of race or society) really wish no one else harm, or are criminally racist, and just want to live their lives as peacefully and happily as possible. But then human nature gets in the way again, and you will always have some people that for whatever reasons will never be satisfied, and always want more. Doesn't matter what it is, they'll just want more of it, and will stop at nothing to get it. These are the kinds of people that often rise to positions or levels of power, control, and authority because due to our "human nature" again, others will adopt their beliefs and thinking and follow them, because as a group, humans tend to not think for themselves so much. They'll most always think of themselves, just not for themselves.

Sadly, most all of the leaders of our world today have deficiencies and issues that helped to create and cause virtually all of the grief and problems we are suffering for as the human race, on a daily basis. And here's the big point, even if we were somehow able to suddenly remove every single politician, ruler, military leader, business leader, and so forth, behind and responsible for how the world is being run today, it really wouldn't matter. Likely within a year, six months, or even less time, an entirely new group of horrible humans will step in to take over and allow their greed, corruption, fears, biases, insecurities, megalomanias, and whatever else they have and may be harboring to end up running the world as badly as the current group has been doing, if not even making it worse.

And as for studying history so we don't repeat it, there are some monumental problems with that logic. First off being that we are human and have instincts, hormones, and emotions that rise above any knowledge and learning we may otherwise think gets us to ignore such human traits. But it ain't ever happening. People do things every single day that are bad for them or that they know they shouldn't do, yet no matter how smart they are, they still do them. Plus, however intelligent we humans think we are, we truly are still just dumb, and in the end really no better or more deserving of being on this planet than any other creature in the world. And as for history itself, don't forget the old adage that history is written by the victors. Just think if Washington had lost the Revolutionary War instead. Chances are he would have been shot/hanged as a traitor, and would likely be no more than a footnote in history today. Or what if Hitler had somehow prevailed in WWII? Who knows what the world would look like, and how people would think today. I know this all sounds pretty depressing and bleak for mankind, but look back at experiments of John Calhoun with mice and the development of his Behavioral Sink Theory. And then ask yourself if we are really any better or different than the mice. And all this arguing, insults, and going back and forth about all this stuff in this thread just helps to further prove true most of the points I'm making.

What needs to immediately stop is the stupidity of senseless killing, and infliction of pain and suffering, ON ALL SIDES!!!!!!!!! For supposedly being the most intelligent life form on this planet, or at least thinking we are, we are pretty f---ing stupid!!!!!!

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Hey, what do you know? We agree on something! We should learn from history.

Let's make up a hypothetical situation and see if we can use history to help us formulate a way to react.

Let's assume there's a country ... let's make one up and call it Deutschdirt. Let's say they were really down on their luck and agreed to a treaty. But then later on, they got a leader that didn't like that treaty. He didn't think it was fair. So he decided to annex a bordering country because, I don't know, he claimed Deutschdirters who lived there weren't being treated properly. Let's say that no other country objected. That leader then decided to take over another country and all the other countries said, "Neville mind him taking that country. If we let him have that country, he'll stop."

Is there anything in world history that you can think of that might give us a hint at how this might play out?

Putin is not Hitler and is not seeking to invade other countries. He told me last night.

Anyway, since I have you on the line, I looked a little bit more into what we were talking about regarding the so-called promise that was made to Gorbachev. And I have an article, which I'll share below, where Gorbachev says that the promise was made in regard to Germany only, but he goes on to say that the expansion of NATO broke the spirit of the agreement.

I also have an article by an author, who is Republican, who I respect very much named Eric Margolis, who is an expert on military history and history in general. I'll share that because he makes other claims. You say you looked at the documents that were released and could not find any evidence of promises broken. Margolis seems to differ.

https://www.rbth.com/international/2...lls_40673.html

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2...ave-it-writing

Margolis also gives George H.W., and Baker, credit for not expanding NATO.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

If it were America under siege from a larger invading nation would you accept our capitulation? Or would you fight and possibly die for your sovereign independence. If you wouldn’t then that’s fine, if you would however in one breath be willing to fight for the United States right to govern itself democratically and in the last breath call Zelensky selfish for doing just that - then you you’re completely missing the point.

Our country was built on the blood of people who died for our sovereign independence. Expecting another nation to hide under the covers when their moment arises is cowardice.

America is under siege - from within and abroad. That's a huge part of this discussion is recognizing the real enemy.

What if you weren't willing to die but you were banned from leaving by this so called "hero"? Is that a noble cause or corrupt politics? Prove Zelenskyy is fighting for Ukraine's sovereignty and not to protect a hidden agenda. Again, he's been posting propaganda left and right. Why falsify the number of Russian deaths within the first couple of days? Why allow people to say you're on the front lines when you're not? Question Zelenskyy. He could very well be full of integrity in this situation, but we don't know. And the fact that every single news outlet is reporting him as a hero - instantly - is extremely off to me.

I love this country (America) more than most. But I am sick and tired of it being destroyed, because this is the greatest damn country in the world. We lead by example - peace through strength. Ironically enough, the last president that exemplified that didn't see Russia grow its territory, nor did we have a single war started for 4 years. So when things don't add up, I'm going to ask questions. Facts don't care about your feelings.

You want to truly care about innocent people - Ukrainians and elsewhere? Figure out why the US is meddling in so many damn countries. Figure out why our president's son has a spot on a Ukrainian gas company's board, along with CIA, etc. Figure out why NATO still exists and is growing. Figure out why we have alliances with countries that are more pro-Russian than pro-America (Germany, Italy to name a couple). Figure out why we've stoked the flames with economic sanctions instead of taking military action against a country that is supposedly getting their asses handed to them by a bunch of under-manned, under-armed, and under-trained Ukrainians - or ask yourself if that's really happening based on those simple facts I laid out. Figure out why there are supposedly thousands of Russians dying, yet the vast majority of videos coming out are Russian attacks on Ukraine. Figure out why Russia had been staging their military for months prior to this conflict, and nobody did a damn thing about it. FIGURE OUT WHY GHISLAINE MAXWELL'S LITTLE BLACK BOOK HASN'T BEEN EXPOSED YET!

Saving lives starts with ridding the American government of as much corruption as we can - in both parties. I hate McConnell just as much as I hate Biden. I hate Ted Cruz just as much as I hate Obama. None of them give a damn about you and me - the average American citizen - so why shouldn't we be looking at every possible way to expose them?

Ask. The. Damn. Questions.

Hollywood is corruption's biggest ally. "I can't believe what I'm seeing, this is just like a movie. I never thought this would ever happen." Make reality fiction.

Sheep only say, "BAAAAAAA." Don't be a sheep.

Oh, and then do all of this questioning while paying $4+ - minimum - per gallon of gas because the person in charge right now, telling us that Putin/Russia are the enemy, cut our energy independence - only to buy 200k+ barrels of oil per day from Russia. Then ask who the real enemy is.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

America is under siege - from within and abroad. That's a huge part of this discussion is recognizing the real enemy.

What if you weren't willing to die but you were banned from leaving by this so called "hero"? Is that a noble cause or corrupt politics? Prove Zelenskyy is fighting for Ukraine's sovereignty and not to protect a hidden agenda. Again, he's been posting propaganda left and right. Why falsify the number of Russian deaths within the first couple of days? Why allow people to say you're on the front lines when you're not? Question Zelenskyy. He could very well be full of integrity in this situation, but we don't know. And the fact that every single news outlet is reporting him as a hero - instantly - is extremely off to me.

I love this country (America) more than most. But I am sick and tired of it being destroyed, because this is the greatest damn country in the world. We lead by example - peace through strength. Ironically enough, the last president that exemplified that didn't see Russia grow its territory, nor did we have a single war started for 4 years. So when things don't add up, I'm going to ask questions. Facts don't care about your feelings.

You want to truly care about innocent people - Ukrainians and elsewhere? Figure out why the US is meddling in so many damn countries. Figure out why our president's son has a spot on a Ukrainian gas company's board, along with CIA, etc. Figure out why NATO still exists and is growing. Figure out why we have alliances with countries that are more pro-Russian than pro-America (Germany, Italy to name a couple). Figure out why we've stoked the flames with economic sanctions instead of taking military action against a country that is supposedly getting their asses handed to them by a bunch of under-manned, under-armed, and under-trained Ukrainians - or ask yourself if that's really happening based on those simple facts I laid out. Figure out why there are supposedly thousands of Russians dying, yet the vast majority of videos coming out are Russian attacks on Ukraine. Figure out why Russia had been staging their military for months prior to this conflict, and nobody did a damn thing about it. FIGURE OUT WHY GHISLAINE MAXWELL'S LITTLE BLACK BOOK HASN'T BEEN EXPOSED YET!

Saving lives starts with ridding the American government of as much corruption as we can - in both parties. I hate McConnell just as much as I hate Biden. I hate Ted Cruz just as much as I hate Obama. None of them give a damn about you and me - the average American citizen - so why shouldn't we be looking at every possible way to expose them?

Ask. The. Damn. Questions.

Hollywood is corruption's biggest ally. "I can't believe what I'm seeing, this is just like a movie. I never thought this would ever happen." Make reality fiction.

Sheep only say, "BAAAAAAA." Don't be a sheep.

Oh, and then do all of this questioning while paying $4+ - minimum - per gallon of gas because the person in charge right now, telling us that Putin/Russia are the enemy, cut our energy independence - only to buy 200k+ barrels of oil per day from Russia. Then ask who the real enemy is.

Even more words. Not even gonna count them. Still didn’t answer it.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Even more words. Not even gonna count them. Still didn’t answer it.

Here you go. Here's a link to go fight in Ukraine.

https://fightforua.org/