ESPN Top 100

[Kidnapped18]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I'm curious about these two opinions. Based on what are you saying these guys should be moved?

For all his strikeouts and no-hitters, Ryan still finished his career with a 112 ERA+. He had an ERA+ under 100 nine different times in his career. Pedro, on the other hand, had an ERA+ of 154 and had an ERA+ under 100 just two times in his career. Besides those two, his next lowest for a season was 117. That's right - his third-worst ERA+ season was 5 points higher than Ryan's career total. Pedro won 3 Cy Youngs and was runner-up twice - Ryan was a runner-up once with no wins. Pedro once had an ERA - in a hitters' park in a steroid era - that was 3.17 runs below the league average.

So, again, what's the case for Ryan needing to be higher up to the top and, thus, many, many spots ahead of Pedro who should be "towards the bottom"?

I think you misread me...when I said towards the bottom that was a direction not saying he should be at the bottom.
To me both pitchers are top 30 MLB all time for sure and I have cards of both

Pedro is not top 20 for me at all...I would move Rickey Henderson (my favorite ballplayer) into top 20 before Pedro

Ryan I believe still holds over 50 MLB records that is a big reason why I move him up...in addition he has over 100 wins and over 2500 strikeouts more than Pedro

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

I think you misread me...when I said towards the bottom that was a direction not saying he should be at the bottom.
To me both pitchers are top 30 MLB all time for sure and I have cards of both

Pedro is not top 20 for me at all...I would move Rickey Henderson (my favorite ballplayer) into top 20 before Pedro

Ryan I believe still holds over 50 MLB records that is a big reason why I move him up...in addition he has over 100 wins and over 2500 strikeouts more than Pedro

But, at the end of the day, do strikeouts matter all that much? Isn't the goal to not give up runs? Pedro was A LOT better than Ryan at that.

How can you ignore Pedro actually winning Cy Young Awards and Ryan not?

As for wins, I'll play along and ignore that they're an awful way to judge pitchers (as Ryan's 1987 season shows): Yes, Ryan has 105 more wins. He's also 87 fewer games over .500, with 173 more losses than Pedro. Martinez would have to go 105-173 - 68 games under .500, a winning percentage of .378 - to tie Ryan. So, if you take Pedro's career and add 12 years of 9-15 onto it, you get Nolan Ryan.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

But, at the end of the day, do strikeouts matter all that much? Isn't the goal to not give up runs? Pedro was A LOT better than Ryan at that.

How can you ignore Pedro actually winning Cy Young Awards and Ryan not?

As for wins, I'll play along and ignore that they're an awful way to judge pitchers (as Ryan's 1987 season shows): Yes, Ryan has 105 more wins. He's also 87 fewer games over .500, with 173 more losses than Pedro. Martinez would have to go 105-173 - 68 games under .500, a winning percentage of .378 - to tie Ryan. So, if you take Pedro's career and add 12 years of 9-15 onto it, you get Nolan Ryan.

For all his records, Ryan ranks only 29th by JAWS. Petey is 12th. For all his longevity, Ryan is only 24th in WAR.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My more in depth disagreement list in addition to omission of Negro League players. Only noted serious disagreements.

89. Shoeless Joe Jackson TOO LOW
82. Eddie Collins TOO LOW
63. David Ortiz TOO HIGH
57. Pete Alexander TOO LOW
54. Lefty Grove TOO LOW
53. Oscar Charleston TOO LOW
46. Ichiro Suzuki TOO HIGH
41. Satchel Paige TOO LOW
36. Tris Speaker TOO LOW
35. Josh Gibson TOO LOW
32. Sandy Koufax TOO HIGH
31. Mariano Rivera TOO HIGH
28. Derek Jeter TOO HIGH
27. Roberto Clemente TOO HIGH
26. Alex Rodriguez TOO LOW
17. Roger Clemens TOO LOW
12. Honus Wagner TOO LOW
11. Pedro Martinez TOO HIGH

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My more in depth disagreement list in addition to omission of Negro League players. Only noted serious disagreements.

89. Shoeless Joe Jackson TOO LOW
82. Eddie Collins TOO LOW
63. David Ortiz TOO HIGH
57. Pete Alexander TOO LOW
54. Lefty Grove TOO LOW
53. Oscar Charleston TOO LOW
46. Ichiro Suzuki TOO HIGH
41. Satchel Paige TOO LOW
36. Tris Speaker TOO LOW
35. Josh Gibson TOO LOW
32. Sandy Koufax TOO HIGH
31. Mariano Rivera TOO HIGH
28. Derek Jeter TOO HIGH
27. Roberto Clemente TOO HIGH
26. Alex Rodriguez TOO LOW
17. Roger Clemens TOO LOW
12. Honus Wagner TOO LOW
11. Pedro Martinez TOO HIGH

With that caveat that I'm unsure how to judge the Negro League guys, you and I are on the same page on all of the other guys you listed.

As mentioned above, ARod being just 2 spots higher than Derek Jeter is laughable. You could split ARod's career into two pieces by position and both careers would be top 30 - and still higher than Jeter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

With that caveat that I'm unsure how to judge the Negro League guys, you and I are on the same page on all of the other guys you listed.

As mentioned above, ARod being just 2 spots higher than Derek Jeter is laughable. You could split ARod's career into two pieces by position and both careers would be top 30 - and still higher than Jeter.

I guess I judge them based on received wisdom, a certain amount of statistical corroboration, and a baseline assumption of racial equality. Not as good as full stats I know.

[egri]

I don't like it when these sorts of lists are compiled with active players. The book on them is still being written, and all it takes is an injury or sudden drop-off to make the writer look foolish. If this was the early 1980s, the list would have Dale Murphy and Steve Garvey on there, and that would be a mistake.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egri

I don't like it when these sorts of lists are compiled with active players. The book on them is still being written, and all it takes is an injury or sudden drop-off to make the writer look foolish. If this was the early 1980s, the list would have Dale Murphy and Steve Garvey on there, and that would be a mistake.

If a FB list had come out a month ago would you have objected to Tom Brady being on it?

[egri]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If a FB list had come out a month ago would you have objected to Tom Brady being on it?

A month ago? No, because by then he was the GOAT. 10-11 years ago? Yes, because we didn't know how he was going to come back from his injury and how many more years he had left in the tank. I don't think anybody could have foreseen back then that he would play until 2022 at an MVP level. I certainly didn't; I thought if we were lucky there might be another Super Bowl run or two, but especially after the second Giants Super Bowl I wasn't optimistic.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Tabe

If he didn't get hurt in 2017, he absolutely would have won the MVP that year as well.

Absolutely? Really? Would his .306 BA caught MVP Altuve's .346? Was he going to get that hot? Must be nice being psychic. Was he also going to hit 20 HRs in 40 games to catch 2nd place finisher Judge?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Absolutely? Really? Would his .306 BA caught MVP Altuve's .346? Was he going to get that hot? Must be nice being psychic. Was he also going to hit 20 HRs in 40 games to catch 2nd place finisher Judge?

You do understand there are other metrics beside the counting numbers?

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You do understand there are other metrics beside the counting numbers?

Hey Cliff Clavin, wasn't talking to you.

Do you realize you don't have to make 20-30 posts on here per day.

Talk about counting numbers. Take a day off.


EDITED TO ADD: Baseball is ALL about the numbers. When Aaron was sitting on 714, did you happen to see the crowd? Or Maris when he hit 61. Or Ricky when he broke the all time steals record. I don't think you are going to see anyone in the stands on the last day of the season watching the WAR numbers. I watch and see baseball with my eyes, not a calculator!

Not to mention most of Trout numbers are done in meaningless games. Arn't you the same guy who criticized Kershaw's post season numbers. At least he's been in more than 3 playoffs losses Mr Wonderful has been. Hopefully now that he is the 2nd best player on his team the Angels could have their 2nd meaningful September in the last 20 years, so we can see what he can do when the pressure is on. If he's not on DL, yet again.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Hey Cliff Clavin, wasn't talking to you.

Do you realize you don't have to make 20-30 posts on here per day.

Talk about counting numbers. Take a day off.


EDITED TO ADD: Baseball is ALL about the numbers. When Aaron was sitting on 714, did you happen to see the crowd? Or Maris when he hit 61. Or Ricky when he broke the all time steals record. I don't think you are going to see anyone in the stands on the last day of the season watching the WAR numbers. I watch and see baseball with my eyes, not a calculator!

Not to mention most of Trout numbers are done in meaningless games. Arn't you the same guy who criticized Kershaw's post season numbers. At least he's been in more than 3 playoffs losses Mr Wonderful has been. Hopefully now that he is the 2nd best player on his team the Angels could have their 2nd meaningful September in the last 20 years, so we can see what he can do when the pressure is on. If he's not on DL, yet again.

What is your beloved Ted Williams' post season record? .200 and 1 RBI in one series. Sounds a bit like Trout? My point on Kershaw is that he has a substantial enough post-season record that one can fairly judge his performance, at this point it's beyond small sample size, and there is no question there is a big drop-off from his regular season performance. It's no more Trout's fault that he's played for non-winning teams than it was Ted's.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Absolutely? Really? Would his .306 BA caught MVP Altuve's .346? Was he going to get that hot? Must be nice being psychic. Was he also going to hit 20 HRs in 40 games to catch 2nd place finisher Judge?

He was far and away the frontrunner for the award when he got hurt. He had a 7.2 WAR in barely 2/3 of a season. He led the league in OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+. If he plays the full season, he likely ends up at 45 homers, maybe more, with a WAR of around 10.2 or so. Aaron Judge led the league that year with an 8.0.

So, yeah, absolutely he would have won it.

[luciobar1980]

Here are a few not on the list to at least discuss:

Mark McGwire (I know, I know)

Eddie Matthews (this one surprises me) whoops, never mind, he's there. One "T" Mathews !