ESPN Top 100

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My more in depth disagreement list in addition to omission of Negro League players. Only noted serious disagreements.

89. Shoeless Joe Jackson TOO LOW
82. Eddie Collins TOO LOW
63. David Ortiz TOO HIGH
57. Pete Alexander TOO LOW
54. Lefty Grove TOO LOW
53. Oscar Charleston TOO LOW
46. Ichiro Suzuki TOO HIGH
41. Satchel Paige TOO LOW
36. Tris Speaker TOO LOW
35. Josh Gibson TOO LOW
32. Sandy Koufax TOO HIGH
31. Mariano Rivera TOO HIGH
28. Derek Jeter TOO HIGH
27. Roberto Clemente TOO HIGH
26. Alex Rodriguez TOO LOW
17. Roger Clemens TOO LOW
12. Honus Wagner TOO LOW
11. Pedro Martinez TOO HIGH

With that caveat that I'm unsure how to judge the Negro League guys, you and I are on the same page on all of the other guys you listed.

As mentioned above, ARod being just 2 spots higher than Derek Jeter is laughable. You could split ARod's career into two pieces by position and both careers would be top 30 - and still higher than Jeter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

With that caveat that I'm unsure how to judge the Negro League guys, you and I are on the same page on all of the other guys you listed.

As mentioned above, ARod being just 2 spots higher than Derek Jeter is laughable. You could split ARod's career into two pieces by position and both careers would be top 30 - and still higher than Jeter.

I guess I judge them based on received wisdom, a certain amount of statistical corroboration, and a baseline assumption of racial equality. Not as good as full stats I know.

[egri]

I don't like it when these sorts of lists are compiled with active players. The book on them is still being written, and all it takes is an injury or sudden drop-off to make the writer look foolish. If this was the early 1980s, the list would have Dale Murphy and Steve Garvey on there, and that would be a mistake.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egri

I don't like it when these sorts of lists are compiled with active players. The book on them is still being written, and all it takes is an injury or sudden drop-off to make the writer look foolish. If this was the early 1980s, the list would have Dale Murphy and Steve Garvey on there, and that would be a mistake.

If a FB list had come out a month ago would you have objected to Tom Brady being on it?

[egri]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If a FB list had come out a month ago would you have objected to Tom Brady being on it?

A month ago? No, because by then he was the GOAT. 10-11 years ago? Yes, because we didn't know how he was going to come back from his injury and how many more years he had left in the tank. I don't think anybody could have foreseen back then that he would play until 2022 at an MVP level. I certainly didn't; I thought if we were lucky there might be another Super Bowl run or two, but especially after the second Giants Super Bowl I wasn't optimistic.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egri

A month ago? No, because by then he was the GOAT. 10-11 years ago? Yes, because we didn't know how he was going to come back from his injury and how many more years he had left in the tank. I don't think anybody could have foreseen back then that he would play until 2022 at an MVP level. I certainly didn't; I thought if we were lucky there might be another Super Bowl run or two, but especially after the second Giants Super Bowl I wasn't optimistic.

Then your objection isn't really to current players. So where are you going to draw the line then? Not at 10 years, by your objection to Trout? 12? 15? Are you OK with Scherzer being on the list? Verlander? Miggy?

[G1911]

A player should be ranked on what he has actually accomplished. Trout has performed at an exceptional level and is on pace for a very high all time ranking. He's also played 1,288 games. Would you take 1,288 games of Trout or 2,808 games of Frank Robinson? I think the answer is obvious. Trout could eventually be even higher than this list has him, but he doesn't deserve it at this point in time based on the reality of what has actually happened in the real world.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then your objection isn't really to current players. So where are you going to draw the line then? Not at 10 years, by your objection to Trout? 12? 15? Are you OK with Scherzer being on the list? Verlander? Miggy?

I think Brady is a special case; what he did for that long and at that age is unprecedented for a QB. Scherzer, Verlander, Miggy I would not put on his level. Let me put it this way: in 1959, I would not have objected to Ted Williams being on the list; in 1949 I would have said he had the peak but not duration (almost happened; he almost retired after 1950 when he busted his elbow in the All-Star game), and at some point between the two I would have become ok with it. Maybe after he came back from Korea and almost won a batting title?

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Tabe

If he didn't get hurt in 2017, he absolutely would have won the MVP that year as well.

Absolutely? Really? Would his .306 BA caught MVP Altuve's .346? Was he going to get that hot? Must be nice being psychic. Was he also going to hit 20 HRs in 40 games to catch 2nd place finisher Judge?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Absolutely? Really? Would his .306 BA caught MVP Altuve's .346? Was he going to get that hot? Must be nice being psychic. Was he also going to hit 20 HRs in 40 games to catch 2nd place finisher Judge?

You do understand there are other metrics beside the counting numbers?

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You do understand there are other metrics beside the counting numbers?

Hey Cliff Clavin, wasn't talking to you.

Do you realize you don't have to make 20-30 posts on here per day.

Talk about counting numbers. Take a day off.


EDITED TO ADD: Baseball is ALL about the numbers. When Aaron was sitting on 714, did you happen to see the crowd? Or Maris when he hit 61. Or Ricky when he broke the all time steals record. I don't think you are going to see anyone in the stands on the last day of the season watching the WAR numbers. I watch and see baseball with my eyes, not a calculator!

Not to mention most of Trout numbers are done in meaningless games. Arn't you the same guy who criticized Kershaw's post season numbers. At least he's been in more than 3 playoffs losses Mr Wonderful has been. Hopefully now that he is the 2nd best player on his team the Angels could have their 2nd meaningful September in the last 20 years, so we can see what he can do when the pressure is on. If he's not on DL, yet again.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Hey Cliff Clavin, wasn't talking to you.

Do you realize you don't have to make 20-30 posts on here per day.

Talk about counting numbers. Take a day off.


EDITED TO ADD: Baseball is ALL about the numbers. When Aaron was sitting on 714, did you happen to see the crowd? Or Maris when he hit 61. Or Ricky when he broke the all time steals record. I don't think you are going to see anyone in the stands on the last day of the season watching the WAR numbers. I watch and see baseball with my eyes, not a calculator!

Not to mention most of Trout numbers are done in meaningless games. Arn't you the same guy who criticized Kershaw's post season numbers. At least he's been in more than 3 playoffs losses Mr Wonderful has been. Hopefully now that he is the 2nd best player on his team the Angels could have their 2nd meaningful September in the last 20 years, so we can see what he can do when the pressure is on. If he's not on DL, yet again.

What is your beloved Ted Williams' post season record? .200 and 1 RBI in one series. Sounds a bit like Trout? My point on Kershaw is that he has a substantial enough post-season record that one can fairly judge his performance, at this point it's beyond small sample size, and there is no question there is a big drop-off from his regular season performance. It's no more Trout's fault that he's played for non-winning teams than it was Ted's.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Absolutely? Really? Would his .306 BA caught MVP Altuve's .346? Was he going to get that hot? Must be nice being psychic. Was he also going to hit 20 HRs in 40 games to catch 2nd place finisher Judge?

He was far and away the frontrunner for the award when he got hurt. He had a 7.2 WAR in barely 2/3 of a season. He led the league in OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+. If he plays the full season, he likely ends up at 45 homers, maybe more, with a WAR of around 10.2 or so. Aaron Judge led the league that year with an 8.0.

So, yeah, absolutely he would have won it.