ESPN Top 100

Lobo Aullando · #1 02-07-2022, 09:20 PM

I don't know on Henderson. I'm wondering if he's a few notches too low. He was terrifying because you knew if he got on -- and he did even more with that small strike zone -- it was like it was downhill the rest of the way to home plate. (Great if he's on your team, though.)

3,055 hits, 2,190 walks, and then 1,406 steals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Too high:

Bonds
Seaver
Henderson (way too high)
Clemente

Too low:

Bench

nat · #2 02-07-2022, 09:36 PM

"I don't think anyone thinks Schilling was a better baseball player than Dimaggio"

Nobody thinks he was, and WAR doesn't say that he was. WAR is a measure of value, not ability. If you want to measure ability you'll need something like WAR/PA or something like that. (Tricky here, since Schilling was a pitcher and DiMaggio was a position player.)

Anyway, by WAR they're tied in total career value. (The difference is less than one WAR, which is totally meaningless over the course of a player's career.) And the only reason that DiMaggio isn't ahead of Schilling is that his career was so short. He only played 13 years - or really only 12.5 since he missed half of 1949. If you want to give him any credit for the years he missed during the war, he'd pull way ahead.

The Trout rating is obviously based on some expectations of what he'll do in the future. I think it's pretty likely that he ends up being a top-20 player, although obviously he isn't there yet.

As for the rest of the list: it's so bad I'm just going to ignore it. Half of it looks like click-bait, and the other half looks like whoever put it together didn't bother to check the players' records (for example, check out how much daylight they put between Matty and Pete).

RCMcKenzie · #3 02-07-2022, 09:49 PM

I stand corrected, nat. I'm not familiar with war/pa, I'll have to check it out. I don't care for this espn list either, but it makes for fun conversation. I could argue Trout has only been the 2nd best player on a losing team his whole career. Pujols, Ohtani.

Kidnapped18 · #4 02-07-2022, 10:08 PM

42 Nolan Ryan should be higher up towards the top for me

These three should be much lower towards bottom
11 Pedro Martinez
15 Mike Trout
28 Derek Jeter

No way am I putting these three ahead of some of the greats on this list

94 Bryce Harper doesn't make the cut for me

Tabe · #5 02-07-2022, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

42 Nolan Ryan should be higher up towards the top for me

These three should be much lower towards bottom
11 Pedro Martinez

I'm curious about these two opinions. Based on what are you saying these guys should be moved?

For all his strikeouts and no-hitters, Ryan still finished his career with a 112 ERA+. He had an ERA+ under 100 nine different times in his career. Pedro, on the other hand, had an ERA+ of 154 and had an ERA+ under 100 just two times in his career. Besides those two, his next lowest for a season was 117. That's right - his third-worst ERA+ season was 5 points higher than Ryan's career total. Pedro won 3 Cy Youngs and was runner-up twice - Ryan was a runner-up once with no wins. Pedro once had an ERA - in a hitters' park in a steroid era - that was 3.17 runs below the league average.

So, again, what's the case for Ryan needing to be higher up to the top and, thus, many, many spots ahead of Pedro who should be "towards the bottom"?

RCMcKenzie · #6 02-07-2022, 11:07 PM

Chris, I agree, I have Martinez ahead of Ryan, but neither is in my top 50. To me, I saw Ryan many times and he was like Dave Kingman, he could have the best game you ever saw, or a really bad game.

G1911 · #7 02-07-2022, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I'm curious about these two opinions. Based on what are you saying these guys should be moved?

For all his strikeouts and no-hitters, Ryan still finished his career with a 112 ERA+. He had an ERA+ under 100 nine different times in his career. Pedro, on the other hand, had an ERA+ of 154 and had an ERA+ under 100 just two times in his career. Besides those two, his next lowest for a season was 117. That's right - his third-worst ERA+ season was 5 points higher than Ryan's career total. Pedro won 3 Cy Youngs and was runner-up twice - Ryan was a runner-up once with no wins. Pedro once had an ERA - in a hitters' park in a steroid era - that was 3.17 runs below the league average.

So, again, what's the case for Ryan needing to be higher up to the top and, thus, many, many spots ahead of Pedro who should be "towards the bottom"?

My favorite Pedro stat is that in 2000, he led the AL with an ERA of 1.74. The second lowest ERA in the entire American League was posted by Roger Clemens at.... 3.70. 1.96 full runs below Pedro. Pedro was twice as effective at not giving up runs as the second best pitcher.

Personally I don't Martinez hurled enough innings to rank #11 among players at all positions, but he was one dominating pitcher

Fred · #8 02-08-2022, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

My favorite Pedro stat is that in 2000, he led the AL with an ERA of 1.74. The second lowest ERA in the entire American League was posted by Roger Clemens at.... 3.70. 1.96 full runs below Pedro. Pedro was twice as effective at not giving up runs as the second best pitcher.

Personally I don't Martinez hurled enough innings to rank #11 among players at all positions, but he was one dominating pitcher

That is an AMAZING stat.

Pedro was damn good. Definitely a top 100 in my book, #11? Maybe not in my book, but he was definitely a dominant pitcher during the PEDs era.

The one stat I liked about Pedro up until 2009 was that he was only the second pitcher to have over 200W's and less than 100L's. His 5-1 record in his last season pushed him to 100L (exactly). Ok, whose the only pitcher with over 200W's and less than 100L's (without Googling)?

Top 100 thoughts -

The one thing most people ignore in baseball stats is defense. Defense is a tough sell in a game where offensive stats are what people want to hear about. Looking at the list, you can tell where some players had their defense considered to be included in the top 100. Ozzie Smith at 69 tells you how good people considered his defense.

Robextend · #9 02-08-2022, 10:46 AM

Bryce Harper over Eddie Murray, Lou Brock & Jeff Bagwell?? Eh

Tabe · #10 02-08-2022, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robextend

Bryce Harper over Eddie Murray, Lou Brock & Jeff Bagwell?? Eh

I won't argue Murray or Bagwell but Bryce is a LOT better player than Brock. Brock was a guy with a little power whose job was to get on base. Except he wasn't all that good at that (.343 OBP). Harper, meanwhile, gets on base a LOT more (.392 OBP) while slugging much higher (.524 vs .410). Defensively, they're probably a wash with neither being great (though Harper's dWAR is better). Harper also has 2 MVPs.

There's literally no argument for Brock over Harper unless you think stealing a ton of bases at the not-great rate of 75% success is more valuable than it is.

shagrotn77 · #11 02-08-2022, 01:06 PM

Foxx and Trout should switch places.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 02-08-2022, 01:31 PM

Trout and Harper are undoubtedly getting some credit for the projected rest of their careers. But they are the two most talented hitters of this generation and I think this forum for the most part has a huge nostalgia bias in favor of vintage players.

Belfast1933 · #13 02-08-2022, 07:21 PM

Am I the only one who counted how many of this top 100 I have in my own card collection?

Probably unimpressive compared to most of you� but I am 93 yup, 7 not yet.

molenick · #14 02-08-2022, 07:47 PM

In response to some earlier posts:

Martinez is ranked as the second best pitcher behind Walter Johnson. Which is still high for me, but he wasn't ranked first.

Below are the explanations for WAR7 and WAR7Adj.

luciobar1980 · #15 02-08-2022, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belfast1933

Am I the only one who counted how many of this top 100 I have in my own card collection?

Probably unimpressive compared to most of you� but I am 93 yup, 7 not yet.

Do I detect false modesty? Haha. How can 93 out of 100 NOT be good? I probably own 50 if I'm lucky.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 02-08-2022, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belfast1933

Am I the only one who counted how many of this top 100 I have in my own card collection?

Probably unimpressive compared to most of you� but I am 93 yup, 7 not yet.

99, if you count a Laughlin's Josh Gibson. No Oscar Charleston unfortunately.

Carter08 · #17 02-08-2022, 08:39 PM

Spahn is the big omission for me of course. Not many baseball players with a career war over 100 and he�s on that list while giving up some prime years to WWII. Feels like he gets knocked for longevity sometimes. Easy to forget he led the league in WHIP a lot and threw two no-nos. Dominant.

cgjackson222 · #18 02-08-2022, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Spahn is the big omission for me of course. Not many baseball players with a career war over 100 and he�s on that list while giving up some prime years to WWII. Feels like he gets knocked for longevity sometimes. Easy to forget he led the league in WHIP a lot and threw two no-nos. Dominant.

Isn't Spahn #47 on the ESPN top 100?

Kidnapped18 · #19 02-08-2022, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I'm curious about these two opinions. Based on what are you saying these guys should be moved?

For all his strikeouts and no-hitters, Ryan still finished his career with a 112 ERA+. He had an ERA+ under 100 nine different times in his career. Pedro, on the other hand, had an ERA+ of 154 and had an ERA+ under 100 just two times in his career. Besides those two, his next lowest for a season was 117. That's right - his third-worst ERA+ season was 5 points higher than Ryan's career total. Pedro won 3 Cy Youngs and was runner-up twice - Ryan was a runner-up once with no wins. Pedro once had an ERA - in a hitters' park in a steroid era - that was 3.17 runs below the league average.

So, again, what's the case for Ryan needing to be higher up to the top and, thus, many, many spots ahead of Pedro who should be "towards the bottom"?

I think you misread me...when I said towards the bottom that was a direction not saying he should be at the bottom.
To me both pitchers are top 30 MLB all time for sure and I have cards of both

Pedro is not top 20 for me at all...I would move Rickey Henderson (my favorite ballplayer) into top 20 before Pedro

Ryan I believe still holds over 50 MLB records that is a big reason why I move him up...in addition he has over 100 wins and over 2500 strikeouts more than Pedro

Tabe · #20 02-08-2022, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

I think you misread me...when I said towards the bottom that was a direction not saying he should be at the bottom.
To me both pitchers are top 30 MLB all time for sure and I have cards of both

Pedro is not top 20 for me at all...I would move Rickey Henderson (my favorite ballplayer) into top 20 before Pedro

Ryan I believe still holds over 50 MLB records that is a big reason why I move him up...in addition he has over 100 wins and over 2500 strikeouts more than Pedro

But, at the end of the day, do strikeouts matter all that much? Isn't the goal to not give up runs? Pedro was A LOT better than Ryan at that.

How can you ignore Pedro actually winning Cy Young Awards and Ryan not?

As for wins, I'll play along and ignore that they're an awful way to judge pitchers (as Ryan's 1987 season shows): Yes, Ryan has 105 more wins. He's also 87 fewer games over .500, with 173 more losses than Pedro. Martinez would have to go 105-173 - 68 games under .500, a winning percentage of .378 - to tie Ryan. So, if you take Pedro's career and add 12 years of 9-15 onto it, you get Nolan Ryan.

Peter_Spaeth · #21 02-09-2022, 05:59 PM

My more in depth disagreement list in addition to omission of Negro League players. Only noted serious disagreements.

89. Shoeless Joe Jackson TOO LOW
82. Eddie Collins TOO LOW
63. David Ortiz TOO HIGH
57. Pete Alexander TOO LOW
54. Lefty Grove TOO LOW
53. Oscar Charleston TOO LOW
46. Ichiro Suzuki TOO HIGH
41. Satchel Paige TOO LOW
36. Tris Speaker TOO LOW
35. Josh Gibson TOO LOW
32. Sandy Koufax TOO HIGH
31. Mariano Rivera TOO HIGH
28. Derek Jeter TOO HIGH
27. Roberto Clemente TOO HIGH
26. Alex Rodriguez TOO LOW
17. Roger Clemens TOO LOW
12. Honus Wagner TOO LOW
11. Pedro Martinez TOO HIGH

luciobar1980 · #22 02-12-2022, 11:21 AM

Here are a few not on the list to at least discuss:

Mark McGwire (I know, I know)

Eddie Matthews (this one surprises me) whoops, never mind, he's there. One "T" Mathews !

Peter_Spaeth · #23 02-07-2022, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I stand corrected, nat. I'm not familiar with war/pa, I'll have to check it out. I don't care for this espn list either, but it makes for fun conversation. I could argue Trout has only been the 2nd best player on a losing team his whole career. Pujols, Ohtani.

There is no way on earth Pujols on the Angels was remotely close to Trout. No one seriously disputes Trout has been the best player in baseball since he came up in 2011.

bnorth · #24 02-08-2022, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is no way on earth Pujols on the Angels was remotely close to Trout. No one seriously disputes Trout has been the best player in baseball since he came up in 2011.

I agree Trout was better on the Angels. Life time it will be Pujols and the numbers really won't be that close. In my opinion anyway.

Peter_Spaeth · #25 02-08-2022, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I agree Trout was better on the Angels. Life time it will be Pujols and the numbers really won't be that close. In my opinion anyway.

Pujols on St. Louis was MASSIVE. A phenomenon. The second half of his career he was average to mediocre and hitting behind Trout pumped up his counting numbers.

53toppscollector · #26 02-08-2022, 04:52 PM

Not sure I understand the people saying Pedro Martinez is way too high.

He was the most dominant pitcher of his era. From '97-03, the peak of the steroid era, he went 118-36, with a 2.20 ERA, 0.94 WHIP, 213 ERA+, and 5.59 K/BB ratio. I mean, those numbers are outrageous.

He ended up with 3,000+ strikeouts despite throwing only 2800 career innings. Injuries limited him after age 32, and he retired younger than some guys will now. But his numbers are absurd, in maybe the most offensively dominated era of baseball history.

I place more value on peak/performance than I do on counting stats, though some can argue that longevity is a skill. 10th best winning percentage ever, 8th best WHIP ever, 13th in H/9, 11th in K/9, 12th in K/BB, and 6th in ERA+

The game has changed recently and tilted back toward pitchers to some degree, which might make his accomplishments seem not as great, but I think when you adjust for era/context, hes arguably the most dominant pitcher ever, maybe behind only WaJo. But then you get into trying to compare their eras, which is really a fool's errand.

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