Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Roger Clemens don’t have the integrity, sportsmanship or

[ClementeFanOh]

Thank you, Steve B, that's interesting and aligns with my belief. I'll also
assume it didn't cause you to gain 30 pounds of muscle and for your head
to grow...and it didn't make you cork your bat as another advantage

The entire "the old timers did it too!" argument is pure sophistry. The 21st
century players have access to sophisticated PED technology (if that's the
word) and a network to provide it, that the vintage guys didn't- and
couldn't- access. It's like someone trying to persuade me that an M80 has t
he same destructive potential as a stick of dynamite. I was born during the
day, but it wasn't yesterday...

Sadly, I have a feeling some of the PED boys will slither their way into the
Hall of Fame, doubtless making some folks here really happy. Everyone will
know what they did to get there, though. Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Thank you, Steve B, that's interesting and aligns with my belief. I'll also
assume it didn't cause you to gain 30 pounds of muscle and for your head
to grow...and it didn't make you cork your bat as another advantage

The entire "the old timers did it too!" argument is pure sophistry. The 21st
century players have access to sophisticated PED technology (if that's the
word) and a network to provide it, that the vintage guys didn't- and
couldn't- access. It's like someone trying to persuade me that an M80 has t
he same destructive potential as a stick of dynamite. I was born during the
day, but it wasn't yesterday...

Sadly, I have a feeling some of the PED boys will slither their way into the
Hall of Fame, doubtless making some folks here really happy. Everyone will
know what they did to get there, though. Trent King

So you would punish more modern players because the drugs available to them got better, even though the old timers (well many of them) took whatever they could get hold of and in all likelihood would have taken anabolic steroids, HGH, etc. had they been available? What's the demarcation in your mind then? Is it a matter of you broke the rules or you didn't? Your personal definition of what enhances performance and what doesn't? Genuine question.

I don't believe for a minute the old timers were somehow morally superior/purer in their attitudes.

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- No, swing and a miss. The modern players in question have enjoyed
fame (and infamy) and a TON of money, so the word "punish" seems a bit
of a reach, yes? The voters have "punished" them and, frankly, I'd be
stunned if many of them aren't laughing all the way to the bank. This isn't
a question of moral superiority, either. Put away all the debate and just
look at the stat lines! And, dare I say it, trust your eyes- LOOK at the
players and their metamorphosis. There is no question that these guys
engaged in a prolonged and deliberate series of MLB prohibited
"enhancements"- substantial ones- so they could claim a cherished
record that they couldn't possibly achieve on their own talent. Naturally,
fans have their favorites. I was 30 during the fake home run chase of
1998, the prime of fandom, and I don't miss those dudes a bit... Finally, I
don't hate these guys, I just find them desperate and pathetic. These are
not terms I associate with prospective HOF members. Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Peter- No, swing and a miss. The modern players in question have enjoyed
fame (and infamy) and a TON of money, so the word "punish" seems a bit
of a reach, yes? The voters have "punished" them and, frankly, I'd be
stunned if many of them aren't laughing all the way to the bank. This isn't
a question of moral superiority, either. Put away all the debate and just
look at the stat lines! And, dare I say it, trust your eyes- LOOK at the
players and their metamorphosis. There is no question that these guys
engaged in a prolonged and deliberate series of MLB prohibited
"enhancements"- substantial ones- so they could claim a cherished
record that they couldn't possibly achieve on their own talent. Naturally,
fans have their favorites. I was 30 during the fake home run chase of
1998, the prime of fandom, and I don't miss those dudes a bit... Finally, I
don't hate these guys, I just find them desperate and pathetic. These are
not terms I associate with prospective HOF members. Trent King

Right, but I am just curious where you draw the line, is it "cheating" which is a function of what the rules say, or is it "enhancing" which IMO is a slippery slope? Different people offer different justifications.