Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Roger Clemens don’t have the integrity, sportsmanship or

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Stats are facts but whether those stats overcome a players bad character is still the voters opinion.

Albert Belle should be in the HOF, if character didn't matter.

Character aside, Belle was also a known cheat, remember his infamous corked bat incident? And what about someone like Gaylord Perry throwing spitballs during his career, and he's in the HOF? Those are both instances of cheating, but you never hear much about it in those forms, but the PEDs yes. Why is one form of cheating so much worse than the other? Cheating is cheating, right?

And speaking of cheats, what about what the Astros did a few years ago? I felt what they did was way more reprehensible than any PED user. Yet they did virtually nothing to the players involved. If I had a say, I'd tell each one of them that was in on it that they are now and forever banned from ever getting into the HOF. And I probably would have banned them all for at least a year. Problem is it is all about the money, as usual, and they couldn't afford to alienate an entire city and team. Had it only been a player or two involved, I bet there was would have been some significant punishment after all. But when it turned it to be to so many players, they couldn't punish them all without alienating the entire city and region.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by BobC

Character aside, Belle was also a known cheat, remember his infamous corked bat incident? And what about someone like Gaylord Perry throwing spitballs during his career, and he's in the HOF? Those are both instances of cheating, but you never hear much about it in those forms, but the PEDs yes. Why is one form of cheating so much worse than the other? Cheating is cheating, right?

And speaking of cheats, what about what the Astros did a few years ago? I felt what they did was way more reprehensible than any PED user. Yet they did virtually nothing to the players involved. If I had a say, I'd tell each one of them that was in on it that they are now and forever banned from ever getting into the HOF. And I probably would have banned them all for at least a year. Problem is it is all about the money, as usual, and they couldn't afford to alienate an entire city and team. Had it only been a player or two involved, I bet there was would have been some significant punishment after all. But when it turned it to be to so many players, they couldn't punish them all without alienating the entire city and region.

They didn't punish Astros players because they gave them immunity in return for their testimony. And I'm sure Manfred didn't want to have to deal with the players union, it would have dragged out forever, JMO.

Sammy Sosa was suspended for using a corked bat also.

I can't answer about Gaylord but I don't think the solution is putting more cheaters in the HOF.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Jim65

They didn't punish Astros players because they gave them immunity in return for their testimony. And I'm sure Manfred didn't want to have to deal with the players union, it would have dragged out forever, JMO.

Sammy Sosa was suspended for using a corked bat also.

I can't answer about Gaylord but I don't think the solution is putting more cheaters in the HOF.

Absolutely agree with you, but think about it, we'll give you immunity and then you tell us you did it so we can't due anything about it. They probably set that up like you said to appease the players union, as well as not ticking off the city of Houston and basically destroying the Astro's team for a season or two.

Forgot about Sosa, so he was juicin' and corkin'!

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by BobC

Character aside, Belle was also a known cheat, remember his infamous corked bat incident? And what about someone like Gaylord Perry throwing spitballs during his career, and he's in the HOF? Those are both instances of cheating, but you never hear much about it in those forms, but the PEDs yes. Why is one form of cheating so much worse than the other? Cheating is cheating, right?

This (while hilarious) sums up how steroids conjure up a whole different sinister image than anything but the Black Sox. Sadly perception is what mostly matters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_pHrZuGyS4

[Frank A]

Bullshit that only stats should apply. This is not only about stats, it's also about the records that were broken because of CHEATING. What is it that you guys don't understand? It's all fake production and they should not ever be allowed in the hall. Frank

[butchie_t]

Hank Aaron - STILL All-Time Home Run KING
Roger Maris - STILL Single Season Home Run Record Holder (asterisk or not).

Until someone breaks the above records, and are not all juiced up when they do, these are the current record holders and will remain until such time that someone does them clean.

Regardless of how MLB wants to handle it.

[GasHouseGang]

Anyone ever heard about this article that appeared in USA Today and the SF Chronicle? I have no idea about the validity about what Tom House claims.

Posted 5/3/2005 12:27 PM Updated 5/3/2005 3:58 PM

Former pitcher Tom House describes past steroid use
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Former major league pitcher Tom House used steroids during his career and said performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and 1970s, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Tuesday.
House, perhaps best known for catching Hank Aaron's 715th home run ball in 1974 in the Atlanta Braves' bullpen, said he and several teammates used amphetamines, human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find in order to keep up with the competition.

"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding."

House, a former pitching coach with the Texas Rangers and co-founder of the National Pitching Association near San Diego, is one of the first players to describe steroid use as far back as the 1960s.

He was drafted in 1967 by the Braves and pitched eight seasons for Atlanta, Boston and Seattle, finishing his career with a 29-23 record and 3.79 ERA.

House, 58, estimated that six or seven pitchers per team were at least experimenting with steroids or human growth hormone. He said players talked about losing to opponents using more effective drugs.

"We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed," he said. "And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."

House said he gained almost 30 pounds while using steroids, blaming the extra weight for contributing to knee problems. He said the drugs helped improve recovery time and conditioning but did not add velocity to his fastball.

"I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn't go faster than 82 miles per hour," House said. "I was a failed experiment."

House said he stopped using steroids after learning about the long-term harm they could cause.

"I'd like to say we were smart, but we didn't know what was going on," he said. "We were at the tail end of a generation that wasn't afraid to ingest anything. As research showed up, guys stopped."

[ClementeFanOh]

I'm with Butchie T and Frank all the way- Trent King

[Seven]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

Hank Aaron - STILL All-Time Home Run KING
Roger Maris - STILL Single Season Home Run Record Holder (asterisk or not).

Until someone breaks the above records, and are not all juiced up when they do, these are the current record holders and will remain until such time that someone does them clean.

Regardless of how MLB wants to handle it.

Aaron Took amphetamines once so I guess the record reverts to Ruth? Oh wait Ruth injected himself with sheep testosterone, so Mays is the record holder I guess? Oh wait Mays took liquid amphetamines during his days with the Mets, guess it's not his record either. We should just give it back to Roger Conner at this rate.

No one is a saint in this sport, almost all of the greats have done something wrong either on or off the field. Performance Enhancing Drugs have been apart of the game for a better portion of it's existence, and will continue to be apart of it, going forward.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Seven

Aaron Took amphetamines once so I guess the record reverts to Ruth? Oh wait Ruth injected himself with sheep testosterone, so Mays is the record holder I guess? Oh wait Mays took liquid amphetamines during his days with the Mets, guess it's not his record either. We should just give it back to Roger Conner at this rate.

No one is a saint in this sport, almost all of the greats have done something wrong either on or off the field. Performance Enhancing Drugs have been apart of the game for a better portion of it's existence, and will continue to be apart of it, going forward.

Keep digging. One can find something if they truly wish to.

I stand by my previous post.

Cheers.

Butch Turner

[ClementeFanOh]

Bonds, Sosa, etc in the Hall or not? The debate that won't die, appearing in
multiple recent threads...

I'll start by saying everyone gets an opinion. The problem is that someone's
right to opinion, does not carry with it a right of legitimacy. Anyone who
tries to equate caffeine pills with back room HGH injections and physically
mutated players, is a person who is desperately trying to make his own
bias work. Sosa was a horrid outfielder and even worse teammate, whose
15 minutes of "fame" is directly tied to PEDs and cork. He's a joke, a
sideshow.

I get the feeling that many posters somehow feel that their fandom, as it
was tied to the fake home run race of 98 and fake HR totals after, has been
cheapened. Those fans don't like it- they want their time, their energy, their
passion to be worth something. Problem is you were wrong, it was a sham.
So, to mitigate this let down, people justify the cheating because it
somehow makes it easier to live with inside. I'm lucky that I was never a
fan of these dudes or their teams- it would stink for sure. But the truth is
they were sneaky, malicious, self serving at the expense of others- and
TOTALLY outside MLB's bylaws. The argument for PED guys is pretzel logic.

Trent King

[bnorth]

I think it is so sweet when people think their favorite player didn't cheat or only took caffeine(LOL) pills.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by BobC

Character aside, Belle was also a known cheat, remember his infamous corked bat incident? And what about someone like Gaylord Perry throwing spitballs during his career, and he's in the HOF? Those are both instances of cheating, but you never hear much about it in those forms, but the PEDs yes. Why is one form of cheating so much worse than the other? Cheating is cheating, right?

And speaking of cheats, what about what the Astros did a few years ago? I felt what they did was way more reprehensible than any PED user. Yet they did virtually nothing to the players involved. If I had a say, I'd tell each one of them that was in on it that they are now and forever banned from ever getting into the HOF. And I probably would have banned them all for at least a year. Problem is it is all about the money, as usual, and they couldn't afford to alienate an entire city and team. Had it only been a player or two involved, I bet there was would have been some significant punishment after all. But when it turned it to be to so many players, they couldn't punish them all without alienating the entire city and region.

The latter is entirely on Rob "It's just a piece of metal" Manfred. Never thought we'd get a worse commissioner than Selig, boy was I wrong. He makes Gary Bettman look competent