Gil Hodges

[jingram058]

Now that Gil Hodges has been selected for induction, I feel like a toy balloon that has had all the helium let out. It has been a thing for me personally for a long time. Should I now devote all of that interest and energy on Dick Allen? Who else should I root for?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Now that Gil Hodges has been selected for induction, I feel like a toy balloon that has had all the helium let out. It has been a thing for me personally for a long time. Should I now devote all of that interest and energy on Dick Allen? Who else should I root for?

Albert Belie

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Albert Belie

Yeah, there's a great guy to root for. Like rooting for Curt Schilling. Great guy, well liked by all. Who really cares that he fires a baseball at a kid who had the gaul to ask for an autograph.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Yeah, there's a great guy to root for. Like rooting for Curt Schilling. Great guy, well liked by all. Who really cares that he fires a baseball at a kid who had the gaul to ask for an autograph.

Lifelong Cleveland fan here, and I don't remember this story. I remember him hitting the heckling A-Hole who taunted him about a kegger.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Lifelong Cleveland fan here, and I don't remember this story. I remember him hitting the heckling A-Hole who taunted him about a kegger.

That's correct. Belle had a well-publicized stint in rehab for alcoholism, which is the backstory for the incident.

That, of course, does not excuse throwing the ball at the guy.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Tabe

That's correct. Belle had a well-publicized stint in rehab for alcoholism, which is the backstory for the incident.

That, of course, does not excuse throwing the ball at the guy.

You're quite right about his on-field credentials, though.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Yeah, there's a great guy to root for. Like rooting for Curt Schilling. Great guy, well liked by all. Who really cares that he fires a baseball at a kid who had the gaul to ask for an autograph.

Nope, definitely not perfect, no question, but easily has HOF credentials as a hitter.

[dealme]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Now that Gil Hodges has been selected for induction, I feel like a toy balloon that has had all the helium let out. It has been a thing for me personally for a long time. Should I now devote all of that interest and energy on Dick Allen? Who else should I root for?

Tommy John...for the combination of his pitching and the surgery that bears his name. I suppose one could argue that Dr Jobe should be the one in the Hall, but someone had to have the guts to say, “Sure. Go ahead and try that on me.”

For the record, I think the Hall is watered down. However, given where the current bar is set, I think Tommy John should be in. Plus, like Gil Hodges, he’s a native Hoosier.


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[Mark17]

Originally Posted by dealme

Tommy John...for the combination of his pitching and the surgery that bears his name. I suppose one could argue that Dr Jobe should be the one in the Hall, but someone had to have the guts to say, “Sure. Go ahead and try that on me.”

For the record, I think the Hall is watered down. However, given where the current bar is set, I think Tommy John should be in. Plus, like Gil Hodges, he’s a native Hoosier.


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Why are performance enhancing drugs taboo, but performance enhancing surgical procedures celebrated? Seriously, what's the difference? Both use modern technologies to give one athlete an advantage over another.

[ClementeFanOh]

'Why are performance enhancing drugs taboo, but performance enhancing surgical procedures celebrated? Seriously, what's the difference? Both use modern technologies to give one athlete an advantage over another"

Mark S- I hope I'm missing your sarcasm, truly... if not, the answer to your
question is that surgical repair fixes injury that prevents an athlete from
competing at their earned level. PEDs give the abuser an advantage they
didn't earn or possess in the first place. PLEASE tell me it was sarcasm, renew
my faith...

Trent King

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

'Why are performance enhancing drugs taboo, but performance enhancing surgical procedures celebrated? Seriously, what's the difference? Both use modern technologies to give one athlete an advantage over another"

Mark S- I hope I'm missing your sarcasm, truly... if not, the answer to your
question is that surgical repair fixes injury that prevents an athlete from
competing at their earned level. PEDs give the abuser an advantage they
didn't earn or possess in the first place. PLEASE tell me it was sarcasm, renew
my faith...
Trent King

Generally true, but I have heard anecdotal reports of young kids getting Tommy John as a prophylactic measure before they actually need it. Like "get it out of the way now" kind of logic.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

the answer to your
question is that surgical repair fixes injury that prevents an athlete from
competing at their earned level. PEDs give the abuser an advantage they
didn't earn or possess in the first place.

Trent King

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Generally true, but I have heard anecdotal reports of young kids getting Tommy John as a prophylactic measure before they actually need it. Like "get it out of the way now" kind of logic.

If Tommy John surgery can add a few MPH to a pitchers' fastball, that gives him an advantage he didn't "earn."

As far as the Hall of Fame debates, and performance technology, give cortisone to Smoky Joe Wood and take it away from Sandy Koufax, and their peak careers might have been the inverse of each other.

[ClementeFanOh]

Mark S- So, you weren't being sarcastic. Wow... How do you counter the
fact that PEDs are explicitly forbidden by MLB policy? Can't wait for that tap
dance to begin... Physician approved surgery and PEDs are NOT the same
animal. Trent King

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Now that Gil Hodges has been selected for induction, I feel like a toy balloon that has had all the helium let out. It has been a thing for me personally for a long time. Should I now devote all of that interest and energy on Dick Allen? Who else should I root for?

Rick Reuschel. Laugh first, then look up the numbers and get back to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Rick Reuschel. Laugh first, then look up the numbers and get back to me.

Strange case, as memory serves his four Baseball Reference metrics are really mediocre but despite that he had a great WAR and I think may rank in the top 30 in WAR or maybe the combo WAR WAR7 metric. Ill check. Not sure what the disconnect is there. Reminds me a bit of Bobby Grich on the batter side. Hall of Stats, which apparently is now defunct, rated him very highly.

Yeah, check this out.
Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Pitching - 7 (426), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink
Pitching - 111 (231), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor
Pitching - 49 (289), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Pitching - 31 (155), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Starting Pitcher (32nd):
69.5 career WAR | 43.7 7yr-peak WAR | 56.6 JAWS | 56.4 S-JAWS | 4.3 WAR/16

So for the stat guys, how does this make sense? How can his overall ranking be SO much higher than any of his individual rankings which after all look at stats from a number of angles.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Strange case, as memory serves his four Baseball Reference metrics are really mediocre but despite that he had a great WAR and I think may rank in the top 30 in WAR or maybe the combo WAR WAR7 metric. Ill check. Not sure what the disconnect is there. Reminds me a bit of Bobby Grich on the batter side. Hall of Stats, which apparently is now defunct, rated him very highly.

Yeah, check this out.
Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Pitching - 7 (426), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink
Pitching - 111 (231), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor
Pitching - 49 (289), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Pitching - 31 (155), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Starting Pitcher (32nd):
69.5 career WAR | 43.7 7yr-peak WAR | 56.6 JAWS | 56.4 S-JAWS | 4.3 WAR/16

So for the stat guys, how does this make sense? How can his overall ranking be SO much higher than any of his individual rankings which after all look at stats from a number of angles.

Because these stats (black ink, grey ink, hall monitor, hall stabdards) look at players who were at top of the league, comparing them effectively to the best of their times or all time. WAR ranks them effectively compared to the absolute worst of the league, not even to league average but over a fantasy “replacement player”. Personally, I think Reuschel’s non WAR stats are a much more accurate picture. I’m not with the new math on Grich either, though he was a little underrated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Because these stats (black ink, grey ink, hall monitor, hall stabdards) look at players who were at top of the league, comparing them effectively to the best of their times or all time. WAR ranks them effectively compared to the absolute worst of the league, not even to league average but over a fantasy “replacement player”. Personally, I think Reuschel’s non WAR stats are a much more accurate picture. I’m not with the new math on Grich either, though he was a little underrated.

Pretty unusual disparity though, wouldn't you say? I don't think I've ever seen a player who was so Jekyll and Hyde on the two sets of metrics.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pretty unusual disparity though, wouldn't you say? I don't think I've ever seen a player who was so Jekyll and Hyde on the two sets of metrics.

Resuschel seems like the kind of guy fit for such a gap. You need someone who was never that big of a producer, but with a lengthy career and a long time of being pretty good.

Sal Bando is another guy like this. 61 WAR, 53 JAWS. Pretty darn bad for such a guy in the 4 hall statistics. Robin Ventura too. The aforementioned Grich as well. Personally, I think the traditional stats paint a more accurate picture of them, once adjusted for context. All fine players, but not what Jaws suggests.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Guess who.

Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Batting - 4 (532), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
Batting - 38 (821), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 7 (1622), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 30 (342), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Catcher (13th):
46.8 career WAR | 35.0 7yr-peak WAR | 40.9 JAWS | 4.9 WAR/162
Average HOF C (out of 16):
53.8 career WAR | 34.8 7yr-peak WAR | 44.3 JAWS | 4.7 WAR/162