Were the T210's actually a 1910 issue or were they issued in 1911?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Me too Jason. It doesn't matter to me either way I only brought it up because the newspaper clips indicate that the 1910 distribution date could be incorrect. I think sometimes there's to much emphasis put on what teams the players are depicted on. It isn't uncommon to see players depicted on teams that they played on in the previous year back then.

It doesn't matter to me either, but please point out where the newspaper clips indicate a 1911 release date. I have not gone back to review the entire thread but I seem to recall that you based your theory on the verb tense of one word in one clipping--the use of "appears" instead of "appeared". Mickey Mantle both appears and appeared in the 1961 Topps set, but the cards were released in the past regardless of my choice of verbiage on that now.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

It doesn't matter to me either, but please point out where the newspaper clips indicate a 1911 release date. I have not gone back to review the entire thread but I seem to recall that you based your theory on the verb tense of one word in one clipping--the use of "appears" instead of "appeared". Mickey Mantle both appears and appeared in the 1961 Topps set, but the cards were released in the past regardless of my choice of verbiage on that now.

I didn't say it was proof Todd but what's the proof that they were released in 1910? The S74's, T51's, T42's, T6's, T206's, T3's, T220's, T218's, and even the H801-7's plus others are all mentioned the the ATC journal but the T210's aren't.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I didn't say it was proof Todd but what's the proof that they were released in 1910? The S74's, T51's, T42's, T6's, T206's, T3's, T220's, T218's, and even the H801-7's plus others are all mentioned the the ATC journal but the T210's aren't.

I just asked where do you see in any of “the newspaper clips” that the 1910 release date could be incorrect. Instead you refer me back to an ATC Journal, and make no argument about the newspaper stories.

In fact, as has been pointed out, the newspapers all make reference to the pictures for the cards being taken in early to mid 1910, that the cards were going to be known soon, and that the cabinets, which were printed after T210 cards, were already on the market “some time ago” in December 1910. How does any of this suggest a 1911 release date?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I just asked where do you see in any of “the newspaper clips” that the 1910 release date could be incorrect. Instead you refer me back to an ATC Journal, and make no argument about the newspaper stories.

In fact, as has been pointed out, the newspapers all make reference to the pictures for the cards being taken in early to mid 1910, that the cards were going to be known soon, and that the cabinets, which were printed after T210 cards, were already on the market “some time ago” in December 1910. How does any of this suggest a 1911 release date?

I already said that I think the newspaper clip suggests they could have been distributed in 1911. I don't see why the sportswriter would be bringing up the fact that he "appears on Old Mill cigarette pictures" the prior year, you disagree and that's fine.

The pictures were taken in early 1910 but they still have to get them to the lithographers who have to make the plates and print them then they have to to be packed and shipped this all had to take months to do. Putting them out before or around the start of a season seems like a better time to start distribution.

[nolemmings]

Pat, I don’t have any problem with you questioning the dates when cards were issued– you can search my posts and see the many times when I have done the same. I just think you have not come close to making the case for 1911. I hope you continue with your research, and would like to know more about the journal entries, especially as relates to S74 and H801-7. Also, is there any mention of either the P2 pins or PX7 disks?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Pat, I don’t have any problem with you questioning the dates when cards were issued– you can search my posts and see the many times when I have done the same. I just think you have not come close to making the case for 1911. I hope you continue with your research, and would like to know more about the journal entries, especially as relates to S74 and H801-7. Also, is there any mention of either the P2 pins or PX7 disks?

I don't see anything on the P2 pins or the PX7 disks. There is a page for Sweet Caporal Flag buttons.

[nolemmings]

I just reviewed this thread a little more carefully and see that there is a reference in posts #29 and 30 that points to a coupon and notations for distribution of cabinet size cards. Just to be clear, that coupon is for T3 cabinets, not H801-7, and the notations relate to T3 and T9.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Pat, I don’t have any problem with you questioning the dates when cards were issued– you can search my posts and see the many times when I have done the same. I just think you have not come close to making the case for 1911. I hope you continue with your research, and would like to know more about the journal entries, especially as relates to S74 and H801-7. Also, is there any mention of either the P2 pins or PX7 disks?

Unless I'm missing something the only thing I can find that was used for the 1910 date for the T210's is the teams that the players are depicted on and to me that's not that strong of a case.

In each series the T206 players are depicted on the teams they played on the previous year from when that series was distributed.

Using the print group 2 350 only subjects as an example we know they were distributed in the summer of 1910

ATC Cycle Ledger page.jpg


I just used the A-B subjects to make this chart but with just those few examples you can see they used the teams from the prior year on the cards.

img090.jpg

You can date an earliest release of a card by the players teams but you can only assume how late they were released. From what I've seen it wasn't that uncommon to have cards of players that were on a team the previous year from the actual distribution date.

On Stengel's T210 his team is Maysville they weren't relocated from Shelbyville to Maysville until August 24 1910.

[nolemmings]

Pat, the T210 issue date is not just based on team affiliations. Sometimes I think you have me on your ignored list. Look at the newspaper clippings you yourself posted, all but one point to a 1910 release date and in that other you hyper-focus on one verb tense in one sentence. That’s it, that is all you have shown, and I’ll get back to that in a bit.

1. Do you agree that the Old Mill Cabinets came after the T210s? As I stated, one team in particular moved from Portsmouth to Petersburg in July 1910, and the cabinets show Petersburg while the cards show Portsmouth. Is it not logical to conclude that the cards would have been corrected if produced after the cabinets, and because they were not, the cards came first?

2. A December 1910 article that you posted makes reference to the cabinets being made available a second time, having been released previously “some time ago”. This points to the cabinets being available and enjoyed in 1910, and if the T210 cards preceded the cabinets, wouldn’t the same hold true–1910?

The player referenced in the article on which you rely (post #1) is Sharp, who appears on Goldsboro in Series 7 of the T210 set. We know that Series 7 depicted only East Carolina Leaguers. We also know that the cabinets show players from three different leagues, which correspond to Series 2, 5 and 7 of T210. Since the cabinets for players from these leagues are known to have been available “some time ago” in 1910, and the cards from these leagues would have come before the cabinets, then it stands to reason that Mr. Sharp’s Series 7 card was available in 1910. So the one player whose card you question as to date seems pretty clearly attributed to 1910. Or am I missing something? Add to this that there are clippings announcing in March 1910 that the cards were coming, and others from April and June discussing the cards, and I still believe this is evidence of a 1910 release.

However, the best point you made was about the Shelbyville to Maysville team move late in the 1910 season. That indicates a later release for the Series 6 Blue Grass league, although it is not clear that extends it into 1911.
I had assumed the T210s were all issued near the same time, based mostly on my observation of the Series 2, 5 and & 7 series I just referenced. In addition to their being featured in the H801-7 cabinet checklist, Series 2, 5 and 7 also share many photos with the T209-2 Contentnea set from 1910. Why skip number those series unless the others were already produced, although I guess they could have been intended for production and just got a late start. As for series 8, it uses several photos from the T211 set that has also been dated to 1910, so that too fits nicely with a 1910 release date. There is more to be investigated, for sure, but IMHO 1910 looks far more likely right now than 1911 for the Old Mill T210s, and not just because of player-team combinations shown on the cards.