Were the T210's actually a 1910 issue or were they issued in 1911?

[Pat R]

I don't know that much about the T210's, are all the series presumed to have been issued in 1910 because this seems to indicate at least some of them were issued in 1911.

This newspaper article is longer but I just clipped this part referring to the T210's.

Ashville Gazette June 7 1911

Asheville_Gazette_News_Wed__Jun_7__1911_.jpg

[brianp-beme]

A little searching and I came up with Jimmy Sharp's baseball career (seen below) on the internet. Due to the fact that it appears he spent the 2nd half of the 1910 season on the Wilson team (instead of Lynchburg, the team identified on his T210-2 card) and 1911 on Greenville, leads one to believe that the The T210 2nd series was printed in 1910, and that perhaps the newspaper article was just stating Jimmy's claim to fame (that he was included in the Old Mill set from the previous year).

Brian


Jimmy Sharp
James Sharp
Born: 0
Primary Position: Second base
All Position(s) Played: 3B
Bats:
Throws:
Height:
Weight:
Career: 1908-1921
Jimmy Sharp compiled a career batting average of .241 with 7 home runs and 0 RBI in his 641-game career with the Wilmington Sailors, New Bern, Wilson Tobacconists, Lynchburg Shoemakers, Greenville Spinners, Asheville Moonshiners, Savannah Indians, Columbia Comers, Wilmington Chicks, Hagerstown Blues, Petersburg Goobers, Wilson Bugs, Newport News Shipbuilders and Ludington Mariners. He began playing during the 1908 season and last took the field during the 1921 campaign.




Batting:

Year Level Lg Team GP PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB DP HBP SH SF IBB

1909 D ECAR Wilmington Sailors 87 302 302 55 .182 .182 .182 .364 55
1910 C VIRL4 Lynchburg Shoemakers 58 197 197 38 3 3 0 .193 .193 .239 .431 47
1910 D ECAR Wilson Tobacconists 33 98 98 22 1 0 0 .224 .224 .235 .459 23
1911 D NCSL1 Greenville Spinners 110 404 404 104 19 6 .257 .257 .334 .592 135
1912 D APPY1 Asheville Moonshiners 40 156 156 38 2 0 2 .244 .244 .295 .538 46
1912 C SALL2 (+) Columbia Comers 66 224 224 53 8 3 0 .237 .237 .299 .536 67
1912 C SALL2 (+) Savannah Indians 66 224 224 53 8 3 0 .237 .237 .299 .536 67
1913 B TRIS1 Wilmington Chicks 112 410 384 43 105 22 .273 .273 .273 .547 105 26
1914 B TRIS1 Wilmington Chicks 82 397 386 48 88 13 .228 .228 .228 .456 88 11
1915 D BLRI Hagerstown Blues 20 74 71 5 17 0 0 0 2 .239 .239 .239 .479 17 3
1921 B CENL4 Ludington Mariners 99 367 367 102 18 3 5 .278 .278 .384 .662 141

Totals 641 2405 2365 96 569 43 12 7 0 37 0 0 0 .241 .241 .278 .518 657 0 0 40 0 0

[brianp-beme]

And by the way, great team nicknames for the teams he played for...Shoemakers, Tobacconists, Spinners, Moonshiners, Comers, Goobers and Chicks!

Brian (added card image, not mine but Dean's...and by the way it is an 'Actual Image')

[jason.1969]

Another possibility is the card(s) came out in 1910 but were still on shelves, either in some places or everywhere, in 1911.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nolemmings]

I think you've got the wrong Sharp, Brian. Lee Sharp played for Goldsboro of the Eastern Carolina League in 1910, and the Asheville Moonshiners of the Appalachian League in 1911. Since "erstwhile" means former, the article seems to be referencing last year's team for Sharp, i.e., the one from 1910, so I agree with you that the writer was merely stating the subject's prior appearance in the T210 set.



EDITED TO ADD: Lee Sharpe (with an "e") is the player discussed, at least that's how he appears in Baseball-reference.com, despite the fact that the article and the card spell his name differently.

[brianp-beme]

I stand corrected Todd. I just assumed one Sharp baseball player was all the Southeast could handle. At least everyone can see a couple of Sharp T210 cards.

Brian (not Sharp, but Dull)

added: now that I look at his record, it appears that the 2nd team he appeared for in 1910 was Wilson, also in the Eastern Carolina League. So either way, one of us is correct, and the T210 cards seem to have been printed in 1910. The article is from an Asheville paper, so it makes Todd's Sharpe more likely.

[Pat R]

I'm not suggesting that they were definitely released in 1911 but I think it's something to look into the article does say appears on not appeared. Did the 1910 date come from the teams that some of the players played on?

It wasn't like they took the pictures and a month later they were in the cigarette packs. A lot of work had to be done before they were distributed in the packs.

Earlier this year I posted this clip from March 14 1910 and they're just talking about taking the pictures of the Carolina players so the pictures are most likely from 1910 but how long before they made it into the packs? They were right in the middle of printing the T206's at the time they were talking about the T210's.

Charlotte_Daily_Observer_Mon__Mar_14__1910_.jpg

[nolemmings]

Patrick, I invite you to stay on the hunt, and as someone suggested these could have been in the stores for awhile (I confess I do not know the shelf life of smokes, now or then). Still, it seems very unlikely to me that they would make a formal announcement in March of 1910 that the cards were coming if they did not expect them to get distributed for another year.

[Piratedogcardshows]

I too believe them to have been printed in 1910 due to the player rosters matching for most teams. Tax stamps on packs containing cards have all been printed with the year 1910 I believe. Could they have been put out in 1911 with 1910 photos and rosters? It's a possibility but I lean towards 1910 and as always, defer to Jefferson Burdick and the others who cataloged the types. Amazing set that's just so scarce right now!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Jason

I too believe them to have been printed in 1910 due to the player rosters matching for most teams. Tax stamps on packs containing cards have all been printed with the year 1910 I believe. Could they have been put out in 1911 with 1910 photos and rosters? It's a possibility but I lean towards 1910 and as always, defer to Jefferson Burdick and the others who cataloged the types. Amazing set that's just so scarce right now!

If the March 14 1910 newspaper article is true and the photo's for series 2 weren't even taken yet do you think that series 2-8 could have been done in 6 months? It took over 2 years to finish the t206 printings.

[oldeboo]

Curious to know if there is a main prevailing thought on when the T206 OMSL and regular OM cards were distributed? Is it thought that Old Mill went from putting T206 cards into the packs then T210 cards shortly or immediately after?

[edjs]

Originally Posted by Pat R

If the March 14 1910 newspaper article is true and the photo's for series 2 weren't even taken yet do you think that series 2-8 could have been done in 6 months? It took over 2 years to finish the t206 printings.

Both guys mentioned in the article you posted first played for Asheville in 1911, but both their t210 cards reflect the team they played for in 1910, and they both also played on a different team in 1909. So both Albert Landgraff and Lee Sharp(e) only played on the team they are depicted on with their t210 card in 1910.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Pat R

If the March 14 1910 newspaper article is true and the photo's for series 2 weren't even taken yet do you think that series 2-8 could have been done in 6 months? It took over 2 years to finish the t206 printings.

I do not follow this set closely, so others more into it can comment, but yes, I believe the cards could have been produced in a few months without great difficulty. I have not seen evidence that the series were issued sequentially rather than at or near one time. I always considered the set as having been identified by series simply to associate with specific leagues. Although I suppose it is possible that after some initial series showed promise the makers decided to issue more, but I am skeptical, especially as the Southern Association is the 8th and final series and was a very popular and prominent league, not likely an afterthought. Then again, Series 6, 7 & 8 are considered by many to be more difficult to obtain, which could point to a later release date, at least for those.

I would guess that it was quite common to take both team and player photos before and at the start of every season, for use in dope books/guides, local newspapers, etc., and that it therefore created no particular burden to line up the T210 photo shoots early in the year. As for production, these cards are not lithographs like T206, so there was no real artwork or multi-color inking involved– just a simple B&W photo with an even simpler nameplate. The posters here who delve into the printing and production process may chime in, but it seems to me that the turnaround time would be far less for the T210s.

I have scans of a great many of the cards and at one time years ago researched player/team combinations. I can look again, but my general recall is that many, many players are depicted on teams they played for in 1910 but not 1911, and essentially none had it the other way around. I realize that this does not disprove an argument that they were photographed in 1910 and not released until the following year, but that would sure leave a lot of outdated cards being placed in the market. I bring this up because it was not an uncommon occurrence for just 1910– it happened a lot back then that players changed teams and leagues regularly. It seems to me the makers would have been in tune to that and it would not have been overly difficult for them to simply update the new team affiliations on their very basic nameplate, drop/add players or shift a player into a new series if he changed leagues– all in time for the 1911 season if that was the targeted release date.

Finally, I took a quick look at Lew Lipset’s encyclopedia and saw that the Portsmouth team associated with many of the Series 2 players actually moved to Petersburg in July, 1910 yet the cards all name only Portsmouth. This shows that series to have been done before the move, so again, unless these various series were spread out well over time and/or were sequentially released, 1910 is a pretty safe bet. Also, note that T211 Red Sun, which uses many of the same photos as are found in series 8 of T210, are also considered as released in 1910, so it appears it was not a problem getting the photos taken and the cards produced in that year.

EDITED TO CLARIFY: I said the T210s were not lithographs like T206 with multi colors and artwork, but they actually were lithographs--just not in color and with very little artwork (mostly whitewashed backgrounds and the occasional change of team log)o

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Curious to know if there is a main prevailing thought on when the T206 OMSL and regular OM cards were distributed? Is it thought that Old Mill went from putting T206 cards into the packs then T210 cards shortly or immediately after?

The OMSL T206's were distributed on two different occasions once when they were printed concurrent with the Hindu southern Leaguers (34 subjects) in August 1909 then again concurrent with Piedmont 350's (all 48 subjects) in
March of 1910.

[IMG][/IMG]


August 14 1909
[IMG][/IMG]

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The OMSL T206's were distributed on two different occasions once when they were printed concurrent with the Hindu southern Leaguers (34 subjects) in August 1909 then again concurrent with Piedmont 350's (all 48 subjects) in
March of 1910.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

So if the all 48 subjects group from T206 was shipping mid March 1910, that aligns well with the Old Mill ads that mention "baseball pictures" in early March 1910 and can be seen through mid August 1910. That ad seems to vanish, then reappears only a few weeks later down in Texas with a mention of "Texas League baseball pictures." The earlier "baseball pictures" ad seems to never surface again, and the "Texas League baseball pictures" are promoted heavily from early September 1910 through early December 1910.

Ads for Piedmont "baseball pictures" begin to surface in the southern states in late February 1910 and are heavy through September 1910. The same ad pops up less frequently through November 1910. The Piedmont "baseball pictures" were still being promoted while the Old Mill "baseball pictures" were replaced by the "Texas League baseball pictures."

My theory would be that T210 was regionally distributed with a heavy focus on that three month window in late 1910. This would have given them five months or so to get things sorted while T206 was being wrapped up. T210 very well may have been distributed well into 1911 until stock vanished. If T210 was being distributed regionally, it makes sense that it would have been distributed around the same time. Did a series or two fall outside of that window? Maybe...

Looking at the possibility of regional distribution for T210 makes even more sense when you look at the leagues and locations compared to pop reports. Having less known examples of cards from places like rural Kentucky and West Virginia adds up. There is a pretty solid correlation there I believe.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

So if the all 48 subjects group from T206 was shipping mid March 1910, that aligns well with the Old Mill ads that mention "baseball pictures" in early March 1910 and can be seen through mid August 1910. That ad seems to vanish, then reappears only a few weeks later down in Texas with a mention of "Texas League baseball pictures." The earlier "baseball pictures" ad seems to never surface again, and the "Texas League baseball pictures" are promoted heavily from early September 1910 through early December 1910.

Ads for Piedmont "baseball pictures" begin to surface in the southern states in late February 1910 and are heavy through September 1910. The same ad pops up less frequently through November 1910. The Piedmont "baseball pictures" were still being promoted while the Old Mill "baseball pictures" were replaced by the "Texas League baseball pictures."

My theory would be that T210 was regionally distributed with a heavy focus on that three month window in late 1910. T210 very well may have been distributed well into 1911 until stock vanished. If T210 was being distributed regionally, it makes sense that it would have been distributed around the same time. Did a series or two fall outside of that window? Maybe...

Looking at the possibility of regional distribution for T210 makes even more sense when you look at the leagues and locations compared to pop reports. Having less known examples of cards from places like rural Kentucky and West Virginia adds up. There is a pretty solid correlation there I believe.

That add actually ran until September 29 1910 the ledger page says that they discontinued packing them in December 1910 the ads and the ledger pages coincide with the Texas League ads and pretty close to the baseball pictures ad. So they were distributing the old mill T206's until the end of 1910 if the T210's were distributed in 1910 they would of been competing with the T206's for distribution in the Old Mill packs.

Many of the Southern League players in the T206 set are depicted on their teams from the prior year.

[oldeboo]

Even if that's the case, the "Texas League baseball pictures" ad stood alone for all of October, November, and into December. You believe the "Texas League baseball pictures" is in reference to 6 Texas League players in T206 as opposed to the 95 card(I believe) T210 series 3 that featured only Texas League players?

Is it known that only those 6 players were distributed in Texas? Or would your odds be 6/48(12.5%) to get a Texas League card? Why the sudden need to switch from "baseball pictures" to "Texas League baseball pictures" in the middle or end of an advertising campaign to highlight 6 cards only in Texas?

Edit to add: I found that September 28 "baseball pictures" ad now. So we have "baseball pictures" from early March 1910 through late September 1910 and "Texas League baseball pictures" from early September 1910 through early December 1910. The questions above still remain.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Even if that's the case, the "Texas League baseball pictures" ad stood alone for all of October, November, and into December. You believe the "Texas League baseball pictures" is in reference to 6 Texas League players in T206 as opposed to the 95 card(I believe) T210 series 3 that featured only Texas League players?

Is it known that only those 6 players were distributed in Texas? Or would your odds be 6/48(12.5%) to get a Texas League card? Why the sudden need to switch from "baseball pictures" to "Texas League baseball pictures" in the middle or end of an advertising campaign to highlight 6 cards only in Texas?

Edit to add: I found that September 28 "baseball pictures" ad now. So we have "baseball pictures" from early March 1910 through late September 1910 and "Texas League baseball pictures" from early September 1910 through early December 1910. The questions above still remain.

I don't have an answer if only Texas League players were distributed in Texas Trey but there were 26 different style ads and both the baseball player an Texas League ads were the same except the wording and both ads show t206 cards.

Here's a picture of one pair and a thread I started on them.
[IMG][/IMG]


https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=Old+Mill

I'm not saying this is definitive proof that the T210's were distributed in 1911 but I try to keep an open mind when doing research. On more than one occasion dates that started out as estimates and eventually were taken as facts have been proven incorrect and I think the newspaper articles and the known dates of the Old Mill distribution of the T206's is enough evidence to question the dates on the T210's.

[oldeboo]

I completely agree about having an open mind. Raise questions and try to figure them out is the best we can do. In my opinion, I just see more evidence towards T210 being a mostly 1910 distribution and I think there is a good chance the "Texas League baseball players" is a solid clue.

Thanks for sharing that link. There seems to be something interesting going on, especially with the Texas League P350s.

I know one thing with absolute certainty. I would have been completely pissed off if I was told I was getting Texas League cards and then there were only 6 of them and I only had a 12.5% chance of getting one. I would have been switching brands.

Since this is essentially an Old Mill discussion, and these nuggets of information are intertwined, do you have an opinion on the third version of that Old Mill ad from Hawaii? Maybe there are other locations, but haven't seen them. I'm sure you're aware of this version. I believe it ran for a decent amount of time in the summer of 1911. It removes the mention of baseball pictures, but still shows T206 inside an Old Mill pack. A case of false advertising or do you think it's connected to something? One of the regular OM print runs maybe?

[Steve D]

Here's a previous thread about T210s that might provide some help/insight:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=t210+cy+young

Steve

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Here's a previous thread about T210s that might provide some help/insight:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=t210+cy+young

Steve

Nice thread with some solid information.

To expand on your post a tad, here is a clipping that discusses the Virginia Valley League photographs.

[Pat R]

We just have different opinions on what the evidence is telling us Trey no problem there.

Awhile back I asked about the Cabinets mentioned on the Old Mill ledger pageI think you could send in for them or the way it reads they were also in the cartons.

[IMG][/IMG]

I just found this newspaper clip and to me it suggest there was enough interest in the cabinets to inspire them to start making the T210's.

December 12 1910 Greenville News
The_Greenville_News_Mon__Dec_12__1910_.jpg

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Pat R

We just have different opinions on what the evidence is telling us Trey no problem there.

Awhile back I asked about the Cabinets mentioned on the Old Mill ledger pageI think you could send in for them or the way it reads they were also in the cartons.

I just found this newspaper clip and to me it suggest there was enough interest in the cabinets to inspire them to start making the T210's.

December 12 1910 Greenville News
Attachment 486421

Patrick, it is almost certain that the cabinets came after the T210 cards. They include two players listed for Petersburg that appear on T210 cards for Portsmouth. As I mentioned in a prior post, Lipset reports that that the team moved from Portsmouth to Petersburg in July 1910, but all T210 players show Portsmouth--they do not show the team change. Surely the cards would have noted the change if they came after the cabinets.

[oldeboo]

Yeah, I had seen that earlier. "Some time ago" people were able to get the H801-7s during the distribution of T210. The visitation by the Old Mill representative was after the main distribution through the cases, during the 1910 season. These cabinets were used to draw a customer into a product that looked very similar to it, they would not have shipped with cards that looked absolutely nothing like the cabinets. T210 Series 2, 5, and 7 are very closely connected in more ways than one, such as T209-2. Geographically speaking, they were also at the core of the Old Mill factory in Virginia. Those series consist of the Virginia League, Carolina Association, and East Carolina League. It's one piece to the puzzle.

Check out post #9 in the link for the method of distribution of H801-7:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=171131

Again, please reference post #21 in this thread:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=232761

T210-8 tells a very interesting story in relation to T211 and some issues that seem earlier such as Hindu SL. You have to dissect the T210 set in pieces. The pieces tell the story.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Patrick, it is almost certain that the cabinets came after the T210 cards. They include two players listed for Petersburg that appear on T210 cards for Portsmouth. As I mentioned in a prior post, Lipset reports that that the team moved from Portsmouth to Petersburg in July 1910, but all T210 players show Portsmouth--they do not show the team change. Surely the cards would have noted the change if they came after the cabinets.

That sounds correct. You also have this clipping to connect the actual photographs to before 4/27/1910 from the Carolina Association, Eastern Carolina League, and very likely the Virginia League. If one was to believe the ledger is indicating H801-7 began shipping 5/6/1910, then it seems we have this pinned down to an exact sequence of dates. If the move wasn't until July 1910 those specific cabinets may have shipped later. The more I look at that ledger, the "began shipping 3/17/1910" is when T210 distribution began. It's right there in handwriting. We already know that some of the T210-8 images match cards produced in 1909. Are there other 1909 images in T210? It is directly next to the picture coupon which is related to T210 and there is no indication that it is T206. The writing above that is next to the T206 coupon. The discontinued date aligns with the end of the "Texas League baseball pictures" ads almost exactly. The discontinued date is even three days after that clipping that describes that fine gentlemen from Old Mill planning to visit Greenville with some gifts. Again, the discontinued date is directly next to the T210 coupon, not the T206 coupon. All of that information certainly confirms 1910 for me, amazing what all of those clippings and other pieces of information can reveal. That ledger looks spot on.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Yeah, I had seen that earlier. "Some time ago" people were able to get the H801-7s during the distribution of T210. The visitation by the Old Mill representative was after the main distribution through the cases, during the 1910 season. These cabinets were used to draw a customer into a product that looked very similar to it, they would not have shipped with cards that looked absolutely nothing like the cabinets. T210 Series 2, 5, and 7 are very closely connected in more ways than one, such as T209-2. Geographically speaking, they were also at the core of the Old Mill factory in Virginia. Those series consist of the Virginia League, Carolina Association, and East Carolina League. It's one piece to the puzzle.

Check out post #9 in the link for the method of distribution of H801-7:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=171131

Again, please reference post #21 in this thread:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=232761

T210-8 tells a very interesting story in relation to T211 and some issues that seem earlier such as Hindu SL. You have to dissect the T210 set in pieces. The pieces tell the story.

I don't see anything in those two threads that change my opinion.

Originally Posted by oldeboo

That sounds correct. You also have this clipping to connect the actual photographs to before 4/27/1910 from the Carolina Association, Eastern Carolina League, and very likely the Virginia League. If one was to believe the ledger is indicating H801-7 began shipping 5/6/1910, then it seems we have this pinned down to an exact sequence of dates. If the move wasn't until July 1910 those specific cabinets may have shipped later. The more I look at that ledger, the "began shipping 3/17/1910" is when T210 distribution began. It's right there in handwriting. We already know that some of the T210-8 images match cards produced in 1909. Are there other 1909 images in T210? It is directly next to the picture coupon which is related to T210 and there is no indication that it is T206. The writing above that is next to the T206 coupon. The discontinued date aligns with the end of the "Texas League baseball pictures" ads almost exactly. The discontinued date is even three days after that clipping that describes that fine gentlemen from Old Mill planning to visit Greenville with some gifts. Again, the discontinued date is directly next to the T210 coupon, not the T206 coupon. All of that information certainly confirms 1910 for me, amazing what all of those clippings and other pieces of information can reveal. That ledger looks spot on.

This all coincides with T206's it even states one Nat'l and 1 southern league picture.

This is just my opinion you don't have to accept. I see evidence that at the very least some of the T210's appear to have been distributed in 1911 I haven't seen one thing that convinces me they were distributed in 1910 like an ad or newspaper clip on the distribution. There are clips that they took the pictures in 1910 but to me that's not proof they distributed them in 1910. The T206 pictures were taken long before they printed the T206's it states that in the Ball letter, they had the pictures before they even attempted to get permission to use them.

[oldeboo]

The ledger entry format is brand name at the top of the page, an item from that brand, then directly next to it and inline with the top of that item the information begins.

Take a look at some of the entries:
https://t206resource.com/Ledger%20Page%20Gallery.html

The 3/17/1910 date is exactly where it should be as a description next to the coupon that coincides with T210. The same for the discontinued date. It is not near the above T206 references at all, there is a very clear space and it was intentionally written directly next to the T210 related coupon. Then the cabinet entry is directly below the coupon for that specific cabinet.

We just aren't seeing the same ledger.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

The ledger entry format is brand name at the top of the page, an item from that brand, then directly next to it and inline with the top of that item the information begins.

Take a look at some of the entries:
https://t206resource.com/Ledger%20Page%20Gallery.html

The 3/17/1910 date is exactly where it should be as a description next to the coupon that coincides with T210. The same for the discontinued date. It is not near the above T206 references at all, there is a very clear space and it was intentionally written directly next to the T210 related coupon. Then the cabinet entry is directly below the coupon for that specific cabinet.

We just aren't seeing the same ledger.

I disagree I think the writing underneath that is for the T210 "related" coupon and the 3/17/1910 is for the T206's we know from what you and I both posted that they didn't even have the pictures taken for the T210's at that time.

The coupon also say's ready to mail April 1 1910
Old Mill Ledger page - Copy - Copy.jpg

[oldeboo]

The T210 set is very robust and has more subjects than t206, it was a process. There were images used in the T210 set that directly coincide with cards printed in 1909. Those would have been the first wave to be distributed, in my opinion. I don't think they would have sat on those images until 1911 to release a set of a ton of players no longer on certain teams, just my opinion. The Greminger examples below, that I've found online, are one instance of this and there are many more. The photo shoots that we have seen mentioned are related to other series and distributions.

I added a copy of how I am seeing the ledger, just incase I'm not saying what I'm trying to convey. This is so others can see what I'm seeing. Heck, maybe I'm not right. That's all, that's what I see. That is how I interpret the ledger entries. I know I'm not convincing you. I hope we both understand it's just good conversation about something we are both curious about. I feel like I've learned a lot, but not everything.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

The T210 set is very robust and has more subjects than t206, it was a process. There were images used in the T210 set that directly coincide with cards printed in 1909. Those would have been the first wave to be distributed, in my opinion. I don't think they would have sat on those images until 1911 to release a set of a ton of players no longer on certain teams, just my opinion. The Greminger examples below, that I've found online, are one instance of this and there are many more. The photo shoots that we have seen mentioned are related to other series and distributions.

I added a copy of how I am seeing the ledger, just incase I'm not saying what I'm trying to convey. This is so others can see what I'm seeing. Heck, maybe I'm not right. That's all, that's what I see. That is how I interpret the ledger entries. I know I'm not convincing you. I hope we both understand it's just good conversation about something we are both curious about. I feel like I've learned a lot, but not everything.

Whenever they made a change in the packing they entered the packing and shipping dates for those changes your diagram is missing when they only packed the Major League subjects.
entries.jpg

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Whenever they made a change in the packing they entered the packing and shipping dates for those changes your diagram is missing when they only packed the Major League subjects.

I don't think they would have put a SL and Major League in a pack designated exclusively for T210, just my opinion. There is no mention of any subjects next to the spot in the ledger designated for T210. Certainly above, indeed there were SL and Major League in T206. I'm missing the notation that correlates with the bottom coupon for T210. You almost have me convinced this massive T210 set never existed and ATC only distributed T206.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

I don't think they would have put a SL and Major League in a pack designated exclusively for T210, just my opinion. There is no mention of any subjects next to the spot in the ledger designated for T210. Certainly above, indeed there were SL and Major League in T206. I'm missing the notation that correlates with the bottom coupon for T210. You almost have me convinced this massive T210 set never existed and ATC only distributed T206.

I color coded all the different entries they made for the changes every entry/change has a date assigned to it.

[IMG][/IMG]

[oldeboo]

Thank you. You proved my point! I'm going to go watch some football. I'll probably check in later tonight to see if there is even one thing that shows T210 was not discontinued by the end of 1910, and that nothing more than remaining inventory was being sold in 1911. Which by the way, I agree that remaining inventory was still being sold in 1911. I'll stay on the hunt too and dig deeper into 1911 in order to find anything!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Thank you. You proved my point! I'm going to go watch some football. I'll probably check in later tonight to see if there is even one thing that shows T210 was not discontinued by the end of 1910, and that nothing more than remaining inventory was being sold in 1911. Which by the way, I agree that remaining inventory was still being sold in 1911. I'll stay on the hunt too and dig deeper into 1911 in order to find anything!

I'm not sure what you mean trey? The 5/6/1910 date is for the packing of the coupon pasted in the journal for people to order the Cabinet pictures and on 5-27-10 they started packing coupons for the boxers that's why they are so scarce they had to be ordered through the mail.

[Pat R]

The Old Mill packs were distributed with a card(s) and the coupon for the T206's. The top part was torn off for the cards. It's a shame that someone destroyed part of the journal for the cards.

The old Mill page would have been like this Lenox page.

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[Piratedogcardshows]

I stand potentially corrected! Very interesting thread. I hope we can attain confirmation either way. If they aren't 1910 issues I'll sell the whole set out of anger lol.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Jason

I stand potentially corrected! Very interesting thread. I hope we can attain confirmation either way. If they aren't 1910 issues I'll sell the whole set out of anger lol.

Me too Jason. It doesn't matter to me either way I only brought it up because the newspaper clips indicate that the 1910 distribution date could be incorrect. I think sometimes there's to much emphasis put on what teams the players are depicted on. It isn't uncommon to see players depicted on teams that they played on in the previous year back then.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Me too Jason. It doesn't matter to me either way I only brought it up because the newspaper clips indicate that the 1910 distribution date could be incorrect. I think sometimes there's to much emphasis put on what teams the players are depicted on. It isn't uncommon to see players depicted on teams that they played on in the previous year back then.

It doesn't matter to me either, but please point out where the newspaper clips indicate a 1911 release date. I have not gone back to review the entire thread but I seem to recall that you based your theory on the verb tense of one word in one clipping--the use of "appears" instead of "appeared". Mickey Mantle both appears and appeared in the 1961 Topps set, but the cards were released in the past regardless of my choice of verbiage on that now.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

It doesn't matter to me either, but please point out where the newspaper clips indicate a 1911 release date. I have not gone back to review the entire thread but I seem to recall that you based your theory on the verb tense of one word in one clipping--the use of "appears" instead of "appeared". Mickey Mantle both appears and appeared in the 1961 Topps set, but the cards were released in the past regardless of my choice of verbiage on that now.

I didn't say it was proof Todd but what's the proof that they were released in 1910? The S74's, T51's, T42's, T6's, T206's, T3's, T220's, T218's, and even the H801-7's plus others are all mentioned the the ATC journal but the T210's aren't.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I didn't say it was proof Todd but what's the proof that they were released in 1910? The S74's, T51's, T42's, T6's, T206's, T3's, T220's, T218's, and even the H801-7's plus others are all mentioned the the ATC journal but the T210's aren't.

I just asked where do you see in any of “the newspaper clips” that the 1910 release date could be incorrect. Instead you refer me back to an ATC Journal, and make no argument about the newspaper stories.

In fact, as has been pointed out, the newspapers all make reference to the pictures for the cards being taken in early to mid 1910, that the cards were going to be known soon, and that the cabinets, which were printed after T210 cards, were already on the market “some time ago” in December 1910. How does any of this suggest a 1911 release date?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I just asked where do you see in any of “the newspaper clips” that the 1910 release date could be incorrect. Instead you refer me back to an ATC Journal, and make no argument about the newspaper stories.

In fact, as has been pointed out, the newspapers all make reference to the pictures for the cards being taken in early to mid 1910, that the cards were going to be known soon, and that the cabinets, which were printed after T210 cards, were already on the market “some time ago” in December 1910. How does any of this suggest a 1911 release date?

I already said that I think the newspaper clip suggests they could have been distributed in 1911. I don't see why the sportswriter would be bringing up the fact that he "appears on Old Mill cigarette pictures" the prior year, you disagree and that's fine.

The pictures were taken in early 1910 but they still have to get them to the lithographers who have to make the plates and print them then they have to to be packed and shipped this all had to take months to do. Putting them out before or around the start of a season seems like a better time to start distribution.

[nolemmings]

Pat, I don’t have any problem with you questioning the dates when cards were issued– you can search my posts and see the many times when I have done the same. I just think you have not come close to making the case for 1911. I hope you continue with your research, and would like to know more about the journal entries, especially as relates to S74 and H801-7. Also, is there any mention of either the P2 pins or PX7 disks?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Pat, I don’t have any problem with you questioning the dates when cards were issued– you can search my posts and see the many times when I have done the same. I just think you have not come close to making the case for 1911. I hope you continue with your research, and would like to know more about the journal entries, especially as relates to S74 and H801-7. Also, is there any mention of either the P2 pins or PX7 disks?

I don't see anything on the P2 pins or the PX7 disks. There is a page for Sweet Caporal Flag buttons.

[nolemmings]

I just reviewed this thread a little more carefully and see that there is a reference in posts #29 and 30 that points to a coupon and notations for distribution of cabinet size cards. Just to be clear, that coupon is for T3 cabinets, not H801-7, and the notations relate to T3 and T9.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I just reviewed this thread a little more carefully and see that there is a reference in posts #29 and 30 that points to a coupon and notations for distribution of cabinet size cards. Just to be clear, that coupon is for T3 cabinets, not H801-7, and the notations relate to T3 and T9.

I stand corrected, thanks for the clarification on that. I think of Turkey Red with T3's, but they are also connected to Old Mill and Fez.

So that throws out the journal having any reference to H801-7 or T210, from my understanding. That lands back to H801-7 being packed with cases of Old Mill cigarettes for stores in the regions that distributed those series. From the newspaper article above, we know that an Old Mill representative also handed some out late in 1910 after they were distributed "some time ago." That helps to explain their rarity. One could assume the cases that contained H801-7 also contained T210, that would seem to make sense.

[Pat R]

I also didn't associate the Old Mill coupon with the T3's.

Here are a couple of pages from the journal on the Turkey Reds. It looks like you could only get the T3's through the mail in the beginning but later on (series 2 maybe) they also came in the 250 and 500 count cigarette packaging.

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[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I also didn't associate the Old Mill coupon with the T3's.

Here are a couple of pages from the journal on the Turkey Reds. It looks like you could only get the T3's through the mail in the beginning but later on (series 2 maybe) they also came in the 250 and 500 count cigarette packaging.

Thanks for sharing. Interesting, but not surprising that the Turkey Red and Old Mill T3 coupons generally line up in regards to packing, shipping, and discontinued dates. I would also think the 4/26/10 date aligns with series 2 as 51-76 carried over from series 1. The coupon mentioned 5/1/10, a later date than ball players, for athletes. The athletes were probably overlapped on the backs to increase how many they could move, since they would have been less popular. Possibly the store displays in the cartons had the ad backs, just a guess. It's neat to compare the Turkey Red ad backs with the H801-7 backs. The Turkey Red ad backs and no offer backs are probably connected somehow towards the end of production as well. I would assume you could request series 1 through the end and those population numbers are higher, I would have to check though. I think when Turkey Red began shipping the "college cards" on 7/21/10 that could be an approximate ballpark date for when the H801-7 began shipping for Old Mill to the designated regions in that set.

It's a rabbit hole.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Pat, I don’t have any problem with you questioning the dates when cards were issued– you can search my posts and see the many times when I have done the same. I just think you have not come close to making the case for 1911. I hope you continue with your research, and would like to know more about the journal entries, especially as relates to S74 and H801-7. Also, is there any mention of either the P2 pins or PX7 disks?

Unless I'm missing something the only thing I can find that was used for the 1910 date for the T210's is the teams that the players are depicted on and to me that's not that strong of a case.

In each series the T206 players are depicted on the teams they played on the previous year from when that series was distributed.

Using the print group 2 350 only subjects as an example we know they were distributed in the summer of 1910

ATC Cycle Ledger page.jpg


I just used the A-B subjects to make this chart but with just those few examples you can see they used the teams from the prior year on the cards.

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You can date an earliest release of a card by the players teams but you can only assume how late they were released. From what I've seen it wasn't that uncommon to have cards of players that were on a team the previous year from the actual distribution date.

On Stengel's T210 his team is Maysville they weren't relocated from Shelbyville to Maysville until August 24 1910.

[nolemmings]

Pat, the T210 issue date is not just based on team affiliations. Sometimes I think you have me on your ignored list. Look at the newspaper clippings you yourself posted, all but one point to a 1910 release date and in that other you hyper-focus on one verb tense in one sentence. That’s it, that is all you have shown, and I’ll get back to that in a bit.

1. Do you agree that the Old Mill Cabinets came after the T210s? As I stated, one team in particular moved from Portsmouth to Petersburg in July 1910, and the cabinets show Petersburg while the cards show Portsmouth. Is it not logical to conclude that the cards would have been corrected if produced after the cabinets, and because they were not, the cards came first?

2. A December 1910 article that you posted makes reference to the cabinets being made available a second time, having been released previously “some time ago”. This points to the cabinets being available and enjoyed in 1910, and if the T210 cards preceded the cabinets, wouldn’t the same hold true–1910?

The player referenced in the article on which you rely (post #1) is Sharp, who appears on Goldsboro in Series 7 of the T210 set. We know that Series 7 depicted only East Carolina Leaguers. We also know that the cabinets show players from three different leagues, which correspond to Series 2, 5 and 7 of T210. Since the cabinets for players from these leagues are known to have been available “some time ago” in 1910, and the cards from these leagues would have come before the cabinets, then it stands to reason that Mr. Sharp’s Series 7 card was available in 1910. So the one player whose card you question as to date seems pretty clearly attributed to 1910. Or am I missing something? Add to this that there are clippings announcing in March 1910 that the cards were coming, and others from April and June discussing the cards, and I still believe this is evidence of a 1910 release.

However, the best point you made was about the Shelbyville to Maysville team move late in the 1910 season. That indicates a later release for the Series 6 Blue Grass league, although it is not clear that extends it into 1911.
I had assumed the T210s were all issued near the same time, based mostly on my observation of the Series 2, 5 and & 7 series I just referenced. In addition to their being featured in the H801-7 cabinet checklist, Series 2, 5 and 7 also share many photos with the T209-2 Contentnea set from 1910. Why skip number those series unless the others were already produced, although I guess they could have been intended for production and just got a late start. As for series 8, it uses several photos from the T211 set that has also been dated to 1910, so that too fits nicely with a 1910 release date. There is more to be investigated, for sure, but IMHO 1910 looks far more likely right now than 1911 for the Old Mill T210s, and not just because of player-team combinations shown on the cards.

[oldeboo]

Great points, Todd. We can certainly deduce that series 2, 5, and 7 were being printed in 1910. All of your points stand alone, so we really don’t have to get into the subjects, but what the heck lets get into the weeds…

Simply looking at the first cards released from T210-8 I believe that 23 out of the first 24 subjects were connected to the teams mentioned on their T210-8 card in 1909, yes 1909. The only one that I can’t seem to confirm is Charley Brooks. He was certainly on the Pelicans roster by 2/10/1910, but no proof of a contract in 1909 yet. As an interesting side note, Charley Brooks was from Royston, GA which is often connected to the one and only Tyrus Cobb.

Also from this first group of 24 there a couple of known errors with series 3 backs. So again, we can deduce that series 3 and 8 were being printed around the same time. Between what we know and with the clippings we can probably come to solid conclusions on series 1, 4, and 6 as well.

I also believe that a couple of the 1909 subjects did not even end up playing for the team on their T210 card in 1910.

Of those first 24 subjects, I believe 7 of them have the exact same image as depicted on their T206 card. It would be 8 if you include the Pepe proof. There is a rather strong possibility that the T210 set was in it’s early design stages, at a minimum, in 1909.

There is indeed strong indication that other series or groups were released later. Even within series 8 there was a 39 subject short print group that was printed at a later time that included Joe Jackson.

Did some T210 cards trickle out through early 1911? Sure, maybe. With the focus of getting it right on the early subjects, I doubt it was all of a sudden decided to put out a sloppy set. Throughout the set there are plenty of clues such as players appearing for two teams, team moves, etc. that do not indicate anything towards 1911. We have to remember that the design of this set was also very basic, likely for quick production.