Were the T210's actually a 1910 issue or were they issued in 1911?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I didn't say it was proof Todd but what's the proof that they were released in 1910? The S74's, T51's, T42's, T6's, T206's, T3's, T220's, T218's, and even the H801-7's plus others are all mentioned the the ATC journal but the T210's aren't.

I just asked where do you see in any of “the newspaper clips” that the 1910 release date could be incorrect. Instead you refer me back to an ATC Journal, and make no argument about the newspaper stories.

In fact, as has been pointed out, the newspapers all make reference to the pictures for the cards being taken in early to mid 1910, that the cards were going to be known soon, and that the cabinets, which were printed after T210 cards, were already on the market “some time ago” in December 1910. How does any of this suggest a 1911 release date?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I just asked where do you see in any of “the newspaper clips” that the 1910 release date could be incorrect. Instead you refer me back to an ATC Journal, and make no argument about the newspaper stories.

In fact, as has been pointed out, the newspapers all make reference to the pictures for the cards being taken in early to mid 1910, that the cards were going to be known soon, and that the cabinets, which were printed after T210 cards, were already on the market “some time ago” in December 1910. How does any of this suggest a 1911 release date?

I already said that I think the newspaper clip suggests they could have been distributed in 1911. I don't see why the sportswriter would be bringing up the fact that he "appears on Old Mill cigarette pictures" the prior year, you disagree and that's fine.

The pictures were taken in early 1910 but they still have to get them to the lithographers who have to make the plates and print them then they have to to be packed and shipped this all had to take months to do. Putting them out before or around the start of a season seems like a better time to start distribution.

[nolemmings]

Pat, I don’t have any problem with you questioning the dates when cards were issued– you can search my posts and see the many times when I have done the same. I just think you have not come close to making the case for 1911. I hope you continue with your research, and would like to know more about the journal entries, especially as relates to S74 and H801-7. Also, is there any mention of either the P2 pins or PX7 disks?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Pat, I don’t have any problem with you questioning the dates when cards were issued– you can search my posts and see the many times when I have done the same. I just think you have not come close to making the case for 1911. I hope you continue with your research, and would like to know more about the journal entries, especially as relates to S74 and H801-7. Also, is there any mention of either the P2 pins or PX7 disks?

I don't see anything on the P2 pins or the PX7 disks. There is a page for Sweet Caporal Flag buttons.

[nolemmings]

I just reviewed this thread a little more carefully and see that there is a reference in posts #29 and 30 that points to a coupon and notations for distribution of cabinet size cards. Just to be clear, that coupon is for T3 cabinets, not H801-7, and the notations relate to T3 and T9.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I just reviewed this thread a little more carefully and see that there is a reference in posts #29 and 30 that points to a coupon and notations for distribution of cabinet size cards. Just to be clear, that coupon is for T3 cabinets, not H801-7, and the notations relate to T3 and T9.

I stand corrected, thanks for the clarification on that. I think of Turkey Red with T3's, but they are also connected to Old Mill and Fez.

So that throws out the journal having any reference to H801-7 or T210, from my understanding. That lands back to H801-7 being packed with cases of Old Mill cigarettes for stores in the regions that distributed those series. From the newspaper article above, we know that an Old Mill representative also handed some out late in 1910 after they were distributed "some time ago." That helps to explain their rarity. One could assume the cases that contained H801-7 also contained T210, that would seem to make sense.

[Pat R]

I also didn't associate the Old Mill coupon with the T3's.

Here are a couple of pages from the journal on the Turkey Reds. It looks like you could only get the T3's through the mail in the beginning but later on (series 2 maybe) they also came in the 250 and 500 count cigarette packaging.

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[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Pat, I don’t have any problem with you questioning the dates when cards were issued– you can search my posts and see the many times when I have done the same. I just think you have not come close to making the case for 1911. I hope you continue with your research, and would like to know more about the journal entries, especially as relates to S74 and H801-7. Also, is there any mention of either the P2 pins or PX7 disks?

Unless I'm missing something the only thing I can find that was used for the 1910 date for the T210's is the teams that the players are depicted on and to me that's not that strong of a case.

In each series the T206 players are depicted on the teams they played on the previous year from when that series was distributed.

Using the print group 2 350 only subjects as an example we know they were distributed in the summer of 1910

ATC Cycle Ledger page.jpg


I just used the A-B subjects to make this chart but with just those few examples you can see they used the teams from the prior year on the cards.

img090.jpg

You can date an earliest release of a card by the players teams but you can only assume how late they were released. From what I've seen it wasn't that uncommon to have cards of players that were on a team the previous year from the actual distribution date.

On Stengel's T210 his team is Maysville they weren't relocated from Shelbyville to Maysville until August 24 1910.

[nolemmings]

Pat, the T210 issue date is not just based on team affiliations. Sometimes I think you have me on your ignored list. Look at the newspaper clippings you yourself posted, all but one point to a 1910 release date and in that other you hyper-focus on one verb tense in one sentence. That’s it, that is all you have shown, and I’ll get back to that in a bit.

1. Do you agree that the Old Mill Cabinets came after the T210s? As I stated, one team in particular moved from Portsmouth to Petersburg in July 1910, and the cabinets show Petersburg while the cards show Portsmouth. Is it not logical to conclude that the cards would have been corrected if produced after the cabinets, and because they were not, the cards came first?

2. A December 1910 article that you posted makes reference to the cabinets being made available a second time, having been released previously “some time ago”. This points to the cabinets being available and enjoyed in 1910, and if the T210 cards preceded the cabinets, wouldn’t the same hold true–1910?

The player referenced in the article on which you rely (post #1) is Sharp, who appears on Goldsboro in Series 7 of the T210 set. We know that Series 7 depicted only East Carolina Leaguers. We also know that the cabinets show players from three different leagues, which correspond to Series 2, 5 and 7 of T210. Since the cabinets for players from these leagues are known to have been available “some time ago” in 1910, and the cards from these leagues would have come before the cabinets, then it stands to reason that Mr. Sharp’s Series 7 card was available in 1910. So the one player whose card you question as to date seems pretty clearly attributed to 1910. Or am I missing something? Add to this that there are clippings announcing in March 1910 that the cards were coming, and others from April and June discussing the cards, and I still believe this is evidence of a 1910 release.

However, the best point you made was about the Shelbyville to Maysville team move late in the 1910 season. That indicates a later release for the Series 6 Blue Grass league, although it is not clear that extends it into 1911.
I had assumed the T210s were all issued near the same time, based mostly on my observation of the Series 2, 5 and & 7 series I just referenced. In addition to their being featured in the H801-7 cabinet checklist, Series 2, 5 and 7 also share many photos with the T209-2 Contentnea set from 1910. Why skip number those series unless the others were already produced, although I guess they could have been intended for production and just got a late start. As for series 8, it uses several photos from the T211 set that has also been dated to 1910, so that too fits nicely with a 1910 release date. There is more to be investigated, for sure, but IMHO 1910 looks far more likely right now than 1911 for the Old Mill T210s, and not just because of player-team combinations shown on the cards.

[oldeboo]

Great points, Todd. We can certainly deduce that series 2, 5, and 7 were being printed in 1910. All of your points stand alone, so we really don’t have to get into the subjects, but what the heck lets get into the weeds…

Simply looking at the first cards released from T210-8 I believe that 23 out of the first 24 subjects were connected to the teams mentioned on their T210-8 card in 1909, yes 1909. The only one that I can’t seem to confirm is Charley Brooks. He was certainly on the Pelicans roster by 2/10/1910, but no proof of a contract in 1909 yet. As an interesting side note, Charley Brooks was from Royston, GA which is often connected to the one and only Tyrus Cobb.

Also from this first group of 24 there a couple of known errors with series 3 backs. So again, we can deduce that series 3 and 8 were being printed around the same time. Between what we know and with the clippings we can probably come to solid conclusions on series 1, 4, and 6 as well.

I also believe that a couple of the 1909 subjects did not even end up playing for the team on their T210 card in 1910.

Of those first 24 subjects, I believe 7 of them have the exact same image as depicted on their T206 card. It would be 8 if you include the Pepe proof. There is a rather strong possibility that the T210 set was in it’s early design stages, at a minimum, in 1909.

There is indeed strong indication that other series or groups were released later. Even within series 8 there was a 39 subject short print group that was printed at a later time that included Joe Jackson.

Did some T210 cards trickle out through early 1911? Sure, maybe. With the focus of getting it right on the early subjects, I doubt it was all of a sudden decided to put out a sloppy set. Throughout the set there are plenty of clues such as players appearing for two teams, team moves, etc. that do not indicate anything towards 1911. We have to remember that the design of this set was also very basic, likely for quick production.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Pat, the T210 issue date is not just based on team affiliations. Sometimes I think you have me on your ignored list. Look at the newspaper clippings you yourself posted, all but one point to a 1910 release date and in that other you hyper-focus on one verb tense in one sentence. That’s it, that is all you have shown, and I’ll get back to that in a bit.

1. Do you agree that the Old Mill Cabinets came after the T210s? As I stated, one team in particular moved from Portsmouth to Petersburg in July 1910, and the cabinets show Petersburg while the cards show Portsmouth. Is it not logical to conclude that the cards would have been corrected if produced after the cabinets, and because they were not, the cards came first?

2. A December 1910 article that you posted makes reference to the cabinets being made available a second time, having been released previously “some time ago”. This points to the cabinets being available and enjoyed in 1910, and if the T210 cards preceded the cabinets, wouldn’t the same hold true–1910?

The player referenced in the article on which you rely (post #1) is Sharp, who appears on Goldsboro in Series 7 of the T210 set. We know that Series 7 depicted only East Carolina Leaguers. We also know that the cabinets show players from three different leagues, which correspond to Series 2, 5 and 7 of T210. Since the cabinets for players from these leagues are known to have been available “some time ago” in 1910, and the cards from these leagues would have come before the cabinets, then it stands to reason that Mr. Sharp’s Series 7 card was available in 1910. So the one player whose card you question as to date seems pretty clearly attributed to 1910. Or am I missing something? Add to this that there are clippings announcing in March 1910 that the cards were coming, and others from April and June discussing the cards, and I still believe this is evidence of a 1910 release.

However, the best point you made was about the Shelbyville to Maysville team move late in the 1910 season. That indicates a later release for the Series 6 Blue Grass league, although it is not clear that extends it into 1911.
I had assumed the T210s were all issued near the same time, based mostly on my observation of the Series 2, 5 and & 7 series I just referenced. In addition to their being featured in the H801-7 cabinet checklist, Series 2, 5 and 7 also share many photos with the T209-2 Contentnea set from 1910. Why skip number those series unless the others were already produced, although I guess they could have been intended for production and just got a late start. As for series 8, it uses several photos from the T211 set that has also been dated to 1910, so that too fits nicely with a 1910 release date. There is more to be investigated, for sure, but IMHO 1910 looks far more likely right now than 1911 for the Old Mill T210s, and not just because of player-team combinations shown on the cards.

I don't have you or anyone on my ignore list I'm sorry if I didn't answer something you asked. I disagree about the newspaper clips all pointing to a 1910 release date they do point to the preparation of the T210's in 1910.


1. I don't think Portsmouth/Petersburg is positive proof the cabinets came after the T210's they are a different process they may have changed the team on them but not the t210's.

2. I think 1 answers 2


I said in the beginning that I'm not that familiar with the T210's but I have started doing a little research to learn more about them.

Wingo Anderson is depicted with Nashville on his T210 He played on Cincinnati in 1910 he didn't play with Nashville until 1911.

[nolemmings]

Thanks for the response Pat. Feel free to disagree, especially since I claim no specific expertise about or love for this set--just using logic and what I have seen so far. Seems to me though, that you have little to no affirmative evidence of a 1911 release date for T210, instead you simply state that the pointers toward 1910 could be wrong or are not conclusive proof.

I look forward to your continued research, and may do more myself. Your reference to Wingo Anderson is interesting, although to take a page out of your book, there is something inconclusive there as well. First, according to Baseball Reference, Wingo Anderson stopped pitching for Cincinnati on June 1, 1910, so it is possible he signed with Nashville later that year and did not appear in a game. My first 20 minutes of research on him shows he was assigned to Dayton but refused to sign there, but I have not tracked him further.

Perhaps more importantly though, it is possible the subject named "Anderson" on Nashville in T210 (and T211-same photo) is not Wingo Anderson at all. The card depicts a right-handed pitcher in the stretch, and by all accounts I have seen, including Baseball Reference and Baseball Almanac, Wingo Anderson was a southpaw.
(Not my card)