SGC kept my Vic Willis T206 gray back variation

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Pat R

SGC was right in not grading it and I think the email you got was truthful they would have no reason to keep the card it's maybe a $50-$75 card in that condition.

Pat, thanks for the info. If your chemical reaction explanation is correct I would think it would also be applicable to the other Willis cards with discolored (gray, violet) backgrounds. In other words, if the patches of red on my card, which you think were covered up, had not been, then there would be no red in the background of my card at all, and it would look quite similar to the other gray background examples.

As far as SGC not having a reason to keep the card.... yes, obviously it isn't real valuable I only paid $100 for it. But I assure you they did keep it (or disposed of it, or misplaced it, or sent it to the wrong submitter, or something.) It was not in the package, and I wouldn't be dishonest about something as relatively trivial as this.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Pat, thanks for the info. If your chemical reaction explanation is correct I would think it would also be applicable to the other Willis cards with discolored (gray, violet) backgrounds. In other words, if the patches of red on my card, which you think were covered up, had not been, then there would be no red in the background of my card at all, and it would look quite similar to the other gray background examples.

As far as SGC not having a reason to keep the card.... yes, obviously it isn't real valuable I only paid $100 for it. But I assure you they did keep it (or disposed of it, or misplaced it, or sent it to the wrong submitter, or something.) It was not in the package, and I wouldn't be dishonest about something as relatively trivial as this.

I believe you mark I wasn't implying that you were being dishonest I just meant that it must be some kind of mistake somewhere and I believe the person at SGC that said they have no reason to keep the card.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I believe you mark I wasn't implying that you were being dishonest I just meant that it must be some kind of mistake somewhere and I believe the person at SGC that said they have no reason to keep the card.

Totally agree. SGC did get back to me again and said they would look into it. I mentioned that what I think might've happened is that the initial grader found my other 8 cards straightforward, looked at the Willis and wasn't quite sure what was going on with it, had a grader more familiar with T206 nuances look at it, and somehow it got separated from my order. In other words, totally honest and easily understandable mistake.

So far I have learned:

1. SGC has been very responsive
2. Your explanation of the background color of the card makes sense, and...
3. Would explain why it wasn't graded
4. The card I thought was a neat print variation likely isn't (good to know)
5. The rest of my order from SGC was perfect, grades about a half point higher than expected, generally
6. When something like this happens to me, I need to take a breath of air and calm down.

So, to my previous question. Do you think my card, with the gray background except along the top in a straight line, is the missing link between regular Willis portraits with burgundy backgrounds, and the completely gray background cards I've seen? In other words, is it solid evidence the gray background cards are caused by chemicals or sun fade, rather than lack of red in the printing process?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

So, to my previous question. Do you think my card, with the gray background except along the top in a straight line, is the missing link between regular Willis portraits with burgundy backgrounds, and the completely gray background cards I've seen? In other words, is it solid evidence the gray background cards are caused by chemicals or sun fade, rather than lack of red in the printing process?

This one is definitely not a 'natural' grey. I tend to think the vast majority of these "misprints" did not leave the factory that way. Note how many of them there are in T206 and compare with how few there are in nearly worthless T59, the other ATC T card set of the period with probably the highest non-T206 print run. I have several T cards like this where the original background color is partially there, in a spot that was clearly covered by something and didn't take sun/chemical/other damage to lose a color(s). They aren't missing links or variations, they are just damaged. A small number are probably mistakes missing a color pass, but they are few and far between. I'd wager that about 0 of the cards with a spot properly done on and edge or corner and then the color missing elsewhere are real. I still like cards like this simply because they look different, but most are unlikely to be any kind of 'genuine'.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Totally agree. SGC did get back to me again and said they would look into it. I mentioned that what I think might've happened is that the initial grader found my other 8 cards straightforward, looked at the Willis and wasn't quite sure what was going on with it, had a grader more familiar with T206 nuances look at it, and somehow it got separated from my order. In other words, totally honest and easily understandable mistake.

So far I have learned:

1. SGC has been very responsive
2. Your explanation of the background color of the card makes sense, and...
3. Would explain why it wasn't graded
4. The card I thought was a neat print variation likely isn't (good to know)
5. The rest of my order from SGC was perfect, grades about a half point higher than expected, generally
6. When something like this happens to me, I need to take a breath of air and calm down.

So, to my previous question. Do you think my card, with the gray background except along the top in a straight line, is the missing link between regular Willis portraits with burgundy backgrounds, and the completely gray background cards I've seen? In other words, is it solid evidence the gray background cards are caused by chemicals or sun fade, rather than lack of red in the printing process?

Personally I wouldn't guarantee any of them to be factory produced.

I was looking for a "grey" example but haven't found any yet but here's a good example of a post factory discoloration on a Willis.

It has an angled change in color in the background that matches the angled stain on the back. The stain on the back is a little harder to see in the scans on here but it's there.
Willis Chemical line.jpg
Willis line.jpg

Here's a more pronounced example of a card where the front chemical reaction matches the back.
Donovan.jpg

This is similar to what Greg posted and I agree with what he said.

[Exhibitman]

What little can be told from a scan, the Willis looks like something I had years ago. I bought a collection of T cards that included a T202 w/Cobb end panel that was 'wet' with some sort of browned oil. Looked like motor oil. I did some research and one conservator said that in cases like that they use progressive soaks in Bestine, a non-staining solvent, to remove as much of the crud as possible. The card did get clean but the white stock grayed as a result and the red changed some. That is how your card looks to me.

[Mark17]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your contributions! So now I'm not so bothered by the card going missing, since it is apparently just a very damaged card and not a fairly uncommon print variation. That makes the whole issue more of a curiosity than a real problem.

I think your explanation of chemicals/fade is logical with my example, as there are parts that have the correct burgundy color indicating that ink was present during the printing process. I have seen other Willis portraits with completely gray backgrounds. One was on ebay last year. And I've seen what I thought were "violet" variations.

Is your opinion these things are all due to chemical reactions or fade, as opposed to missing colors in the print process? Here is an example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144161666607

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your contributions! So now I'm not so bothered by the card going missing, since it is apparently just a very damaged card and not a fairly uncommon print variation. That makes the whole issue more of a curiosity than a real problem.

I think your explanation of chemicals/fade is logical with my example, as there are parts that have the correct burgundy color indicating that ink was present during the printing process. I have seen other Willis portraits with completely gray backgrounds. One was on ebay last year. And I've seen what I thought were "violet" variations.

Is your opinion these things are all due to chemical reactions or fade, as opposed to missing colors in the print process? Here is an example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144161666607

I think that example is a legitimate color variation but I couldn't say 100% without having it in hand.

This Willis you posted relates to the different stages within the same series that I posted about.

If they were printed in stages it would explain the different shades found on the Willis portraits and some of the other cards, we see this a lot with the Hindu's.

Here's one of my Willis cards that's quite a bit different from the one you posted and if they were printed in different stages the difference in them would come from having different color mixtures used in each stage.

[IMG][/IMG]