Why I think Cobb wasn't printed with a Brown Hindu back

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

They do seem to have printed cards on much, much larger sheets for at least some sets in the ATC 1909-1912 project. Is our proof all T206's were done on 19 inch sheets really definitive?

Here's one of the plate scratch sheets that I put together a few years ago using the actual cards. You have to wait a minute for it to load so you can enlarge it.

https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...203%20Full.jpg

Here's the front image of the Seymour and Cicotte that's pointed out in white on that sheet.

[IMG][/IMG]

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Here's one of the plate scratch sheets that I put together a few years ago using the actual cards. You have to wait a minute for it to load so you can enlarge it.

https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...203%20Full.jpg

Here's the front image of the Seymour and Cicotte that's pointed out in white on that sheet.

[IMG][/IMG]

This is marvelous, Pat. I must have the missed the original thread, I hadn’t realized the scratches had carried us this far. I count at least 24 across here in this layout.

[Pat R]

Thanks Greg, the best organized info on the plate scratches is in Luke's blog, there have been a few corrections and changes since he posted the articles on them but most of the info is still the same.

If this link doesn't take you to them you can type plate scratch in the search function and bring them up.


http://www.thatt206life.com/?s=plate+scratch

[steve B]

Pats work on the scratches has been amazing. especially doing it with actual cards instead of just scans. I'd been working off saved scans for a while but stopped when I realized Pat had about twice as many cards as I had scans. (And all put together in less time too!)

I still think the short partial scratch on this sheet actually belongs to one side, probably the right. that would make a sheet 24 cards wide with an uneven distribution of subjects.

The group of new information that's come together beginning with looking into the T220 silver sheets will change how we see things. The known track width at ALC is not necessarily material considering Brett Litho printing millions of cards for other ATC sets.
Having done some quick math before, even Scot Rs low estimate for T206 production would have meant nearly constant printing more likely on multiple flatbed presses. The sheet rate of the rotary press really makes it a much simpler job. Even more so if they had a two color rotary press which there's a bit of evidence for.

But there is also very solid evidence that some were printed on a flatbed press.

That would indicate to me that T206 production probably happened at both ALC and Brett litho. (And possibly other places)

It's all going to take some thinking and looking up stuff to sort out.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

Pats work on the scratches has been amazing. especially doing it with actual cards instead of just scans. I'd been working off saved scans for a while but stopped when I realized Pat had about twice as many cards as I had scans. (And all put together in less time too!)

I still think the short partial scratch on this sheet actually belongs to one side, probably the right. that would make a sheet 24 cards wide with an uneven distribution of subjects.

The group of new information that's come together beginning with looking into the T220 silver sheets will change how we see things. The known track width at ALC is not necessarily material considering Brett Litho printing millions of cards for other ATC sets.
Having done some quick math before, even Scot Rs low estimate for T206 production would have meant nearly constant printing more likely on multiple flatbed presses. The sheet rate of the rotary press really makes it a much simpler job. Even more so if they had a two color rotary press which there's a bit of evidence for.

But there is also very solid evidence that some were printed on a flatbed press.

That would indicate to me that T206 production probably happened at both ALC and Brett litho. (And possibly other places)

It's all going to take some thinking and looking up stuff to sort out.

Would the T206's and other cards have been printed on these Steve?



Here's the patent information on the multi color press that Hett invented and sold to American Lithograph.
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...e/US637603.pdf

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Would the T206's and other cards have been printed on these Steve?



Here's the patent information on the multi color press that Hett invented and sold to American Lithograph.
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...e/US637603.pdf

I believe that some were. Most of the missing color cards are missing two colors. And a lot of cards show pairs of colors in registration with each other but not other colors.

The cards with the nail mark on the other hand are almost for sure a product of a flatbed press, as the nail would have been in the impression cylinder, and there's no reason a press with metal rollers would have a nail.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe that some were. Most of the missing color cards are missing two colors. And a lot of cards show pairs of colors in registration with each other but not other colors.

The cards with the nail mark on the other hand are almost for sure a product of a flatbed press, as the nail would have been in the impression cylinder, and there's no reason a press with metal rollers would have a nail.

I thought about that card when I asked the question and it's one of the many reasons I think different presses and or facility's might have been used on some sheets.
[IMG][/IMG]

What do you think about the possibility of some sheets having the fronts printed on this type of press and the backs printed on a different type press?

[steve B]

It's possible.

Personally I'm surprised they didn't print the backs first. There's always some damage and wasted sheets and avoiding wasting sheets you already put at least 8 colors on seems a bit crazy.

The only reason I can think of it using the same fronts, "stocking" a lot of them and printing backs as needed for different brands.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by steve B

That would indicate to me that T206 production probably happened at both ALC and Brett litho. (And possibly other places)

I'm wondering if Brett did the fronts and American Litho the backs. I found out a little while ago from a reliable source that Topps printed their backs first then sent them to another printer to run the fronts. Could this have happened with the ATC sets?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I'm wondering if Brett did the fronts and American Litho the backs. I found out a little while ago from a reliable source that Topps printed their backs first then sent them to another printer to run the fronts. Could this have happened with the ATC sets?

I'm not sure if this is what your saying Dave but the T206 fronts were definitely printed first not the backs.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'm not sure if this is what your saying Dave but the T206 fronts were definitely printed first not the backs.

Yes, that's indeed what I was saying-it makes sense to me the backs could have been printed at American Litho once the front printed sheets were sent there. I forget the exact AL addy (18th St ?) but it's about five miles from their location uptown to Brett using 20 blocks to the mile

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Yes, that's indeed what I was saying-it makes sense to me the backs could have been printed at American Litho once the front printed sheets were sent there. I forget the exact AL addy (18th St ?) but it's about five miles from their location uptown to Brett using 20 blocks to the mile

It was 19th street and 4th Avenue.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I'm wondering if Brett did the fronts and American Litho the backs. I found out a little while ago from a reliable source that Topps printed their backs first then sent them to another printer to run the fronts. Could this have happened with the ATC sets?

It's possible, but I'm trying to think why they would.
If Brett was involved, it was probably because they had higher speed equipment. It doesn't make much sense to print on high speed equipment, then ship the stuff somewhere else that had slower equipment to finish it.

The Topps thing is puzzling too. Assuming it was done in the junkwax era, it would require shipping massive amounts of sheets. There are noticeable differences within many years going back into the 60's, and especially different inks.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's possible, but I'm trying to think why they would.
If Brett was involved, it was probably because they had higher speed equipment. It doesn't make much sense to print on high speed equipment, then ship the stuff somewhere else that had slower equipment to finish it.

The Topps thing is puzzling too. Assuming it was done in the junkwax era, it would require shipping massive amounts of sheets. There are noticeable differences within many years going back into the 60's, and especially different inks.

I highly doubt this Steve, it's clear American Lithograph was the biggest back then and it seemed they wanted everyone to know they were the biggest and the best They actually made a good pairing with the American Tobacco CO.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I highly doubt this Steve, it's clear American Lithograph was the biggest back then and it seemed they wanted everyone to know they were the biggest and the best They actually made a good pairing with the American Tobacco CO.

The numbers I came up with using the number of passes required and Scot Rs estimates on overall production combined with some info about the sheet rate of the flatbed presses worked out so that constant production would have been necessary just to get them all made. And that's also using a fairly large sheet size, and not counting anything but press time.

Running multiple presses would make it possible, but a big busy shop keeping at least two presses in constant production seems unusual.
The place I was at did a job that was a million 2 part deposit tickets for a big bank. Heat sealed into packs of I think a couple hundred. Two colors, so two passes through the press. With modern sheetfed rotary presses that still took a month plus. Upwards of 200 million cards with 9 passes. on a machine that maxed out around 1200 sheets an hour is somewhat crazy.

The description of Bretts rotary press says 10-12000 sheets a day, which seems low. It's possible they understated the speed to keep it sort of a trade secret. The Rubel rotary offset press which was built around the same time could do around 2500/hr making it about twice as fast.

The stamp on the back of the T220's indicates Brett was involved with those, either as a part of ALC, or as a subcontractor.
And that second ledger shows some very substantial quantities produced for other sets probably by someone else.

I've been thinking that instead of the masters being changed a couple times over the course of both the 150's and 350's the differences I've seen may be differences between printers. It's going to take a pretty major project to really get somewhere on just cataloging those differences.

I'm not sure if there's a way to tell if something came off a flatbed press or a rotary for an item like cards. With some other stuff the plates were made flat and bent to fit the cylinder in the press, which changed the image size.
But that may not have happened on a lithographic press. especially if the transfers were applied directly to a cylinder.
Another thing that would take some study, to see if some percentage of any particular subject had image size differences, which would be small, around half a millimeter if the rotary plate was fairly thick.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's possible, but I'm trying to think why they would.
If Brett was involved, it was probably because they had higher speed equipment. It doesn't make much sense to print on high speed equipment, then ship the stuff somewhere else that had slower equipment to finish it.

The Topps thing is puzzling too. Assuming it was done in the junkwax era, it would require shipping massive amounts of sheets. There are noticeable differences within many years going back into the 60's, and especially different inks.

I agree it is puzzling but do note Topps used close to a dozen different printers overall; this was before junk wax but it's not clear how far back the practice started. The sheets would be trucked from the first location to the second. if ATC did this, drayage within NYC would be possible between the two shops. Anyway, just pointing it out as a possibility.

[atx840]

Pat are you thinking early sheets did not have a 50/50 split with 17 subjects on the top and 17 subjects on the lower half? We have seen a few of the 649 subjects with different subject names on top. Good example is Jamie's Lake/Pastorius card.

[Luke]

This is awesome Pat. Thanks for posting it.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by atx840

Pat are you thinking early sheets did not have a 50/50 split with 17 subjects on the top and 17 subjects on the lower half? We have seen a few of the 649 subjects with different subject names on top. Good example is Jamie's Lake/Pastorius card.

Chris, from the two name and vertical miscuts I knew there were at least two vertical subjects on the 150 back sheets when I first started doing the research on the plate scratches and I actually expected to see that when I started trying to piece them together but as the sheets started to come together I realized that wasn't the case and that they were printed with the same vertical subject all the way up the sheet. I can't say exactly how many plate scratch cards I've seen but it's in the thousands at one point I owned over 500 myself and while I've seen two name plate scratch cards I've never seen one with two different names and from the size of the plate scratch sheets if there was another section on top of one of the plate scratch sheet the size of that sheet would be massive.

Here's how I feel the sheets were printed as far as vertical subjects for each series.

150 backs - a mix of 2 vertical subjects and 1 vertical subjects with a higher % of 1 vertical subject.

350 backs - likely all 2 vertical subjects

350/460 backs - likely all 1 vertical subject

460 backs - likely all 1 vertical subject


Here's a Powell with a plate scratch that SGC put in the holder upside down. I wish it was an upside down back but it's a name at top.
[IMG][/IMG]

[Pat R]

I'm adding this here from the other thread. This new Old Mill Ad is enlightening at least to me I always thought the Old Mill brand was Older but the T206's
were a promotion in them as a new brand.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Bumping this thread because I found another Old Mill ad/newspaper clip to go along with the first ad I found and I think it adds credence to the pages in the ATC Ledger.

Here's the Ad From a July 30th 1909 Charlotte NC newspaper

[IMG][/IMG]

These dates line up perfectly with an Old Mill page in the ATC ledger.

[IMG][/IMG]

The top of the page is missing but I was pretty sure it was about the Southern League players and now I think we can say it is for certain because it lines up perfectly with the Old Mill Ad and newspaper clip.

We now know that they packed and shipped the Old Mills with the Southern League subjects on August 7 1909 but we can't be sure when they started printing them but it was probably in June or July 1909.

Below that it says began packing Nat'l player like those in Piedmonts packing Jan 8 1910 shipping Jan 9 1910 so the printing for the Old Mill Major League subjects probably started in November or December 1909.

and under that it states began one Nat'l and 1 Southern League picture
began packing 3/15/1910 shipping 3/17/1910
I think this is when they switched over and the group 1 150/350 subjects with the Piedmont 350 backs were inserted in the packs. If that's the case then the
printing of the Group 1 subjects with Piedmont 350 backs probably began in January or February 1910.

It also states that they discontinued packing the Old Mills on 12-10-1910 so that must be when the packing of the 460 only Old Mill major League subjects ended.
This is probably when they started packing the T210's.

[IMG][/IMG]

[atx840]

Fantastic work as always Pat.

Wish we had more of this error out there, wondering if a brown OM sheet was used as a test later on for the 649s. Need to spends some time looking into your timelines.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'm adding this here from the other thread. This new Old Mill Ad is enlightening at least to me I always thought the Old Mill brand was Older but the T206's
were a promotion in them as a new brand.



[IMG][/IMG]

Very interesting. Especially the entry noting the discontinuance of the Old Mill T206 cards as of 12/15/1910. I'm wondering if this likely ties into the switch from the insertion of T206 cards in Old Mill packs to the inclusion of S74 silks instead, and is further proof that the S74-1 white silks were, at their earliest, a late 1910 issue? And if so, it also helps confirm that the S74-2 colored silks were definitely a mid to late 1911 issue, at their earliest, as well.

With the exception of Old Mill cigarettes, the T206 cards and S74 silks do not share distribution in any other brands. The only other cigarette brands S74 silks were distributed in were Turkey Red, Red Sun, and Helmar. So the timing of the discontinuance of T206 Old Mill cards with the emergence of S74 Old Mill silks makes logical sense.

But what about the issuance of the T205 cards? They are now considered exclusively as a 1911 issue, and also distributed with brands that never included T206 cards either (Hassan, Honest Long Cut, etc.). But unlike the S74 silks, T205 cards were most commonly issued in the same two brands that were also the most commonly issued with T206 cards as well, Piedmont and Sweet Caporal. So is there evidence to possibly show that T206 cards stopped being distributed in Piedmont and Sweet Caporal packs so as to transition to just distributing them with T205 cards instead? I've always considered T206 cards as being distributed from 1909 through 1911, but never really thought about when that distribution actually ceased in 1911. Or were both T206 and T205 cards being distributed with Piedmont and Sweet Caporal cigarettes simultaneousl in 1911?

We often talk and debate on this forum about when a card issue actually first came out and was distributed, but not so much about when a card issue actually ended and it's distribution ceased. Especially when the cessation of one issue's distribution could point to and tie down the actual starting distribution date of a different issue that takes over a particular cigarette brand.