Why I think Cobb wasn't printed with a Brown Hindu back

[steve B]

Pats work on the scratches has been amazing. especially doing it with actual cards instead of just scans. I'd been working off saved scans for a while but stopped when I realized Pat had about twice as many cards as I had scans. (And all put together in less time too!)

I still think the short partial scratch on this sheet actually belongs to one side, probably the right. that would make a sheet 24 cards wide with an uneven distribution of subjects.

The group of new information that's come together beginning with looking into the T220 silver sheets will change how we see things. The known track width at ALC is not necessarily material considering Brett Litho printing millions of cards for other ATC sets.
Having done some quick math before, even Scot Rs low estimate for T206 production would have meant nearly constant printing more likely on multiple flatbed presses. The sheet rate of the rotary press really makes it a much simpler job. Even more so if they had a two color rotary press which there's a bit of evidence for.

But there is also very solid evidence that some were printed on a flatbed press.

That would indicate to me that T206 production probably happened at both ALC and Brett litho. (And possibly other places)

It's all going to take some thinking and looking up stuff to sort out.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

Pats work on the scratches has been amazing. especially doing it with actual cards instead of just scans. I'd been working off saved scans for a while but stopped when I realized Pat had about twice as many cards as I had scans. (And all put together in less time too!)

I still think the short partial scratch on this sheet actually belongs to one side, probably the right. that would make a sheet 24 cards wide with an uneven distribution of subjects.

The group of new information that's come together beginning with looking into the T220 silver sheets will change how we see things. The known track width at ALC is not necessarily material considering Brett Litho printing millions of cards for other ATC sets.
Having done some quick math before, even Scot Rs low estimate for T206 production would have meant nearly constant printing more likely on multiple flatbed presses. The sheet rate of the rotary press really makes it a much simpler job. Even more so if they had a two color rotary press which there's a bit of evidence for.

But there is also very solid evidence that some were printed on a flatbed press.

That would indicate to me that T206 production probably happened at both ALC and Brett litho. (And possibly other places)

It's all going to take some thinking and looking up stuff to sort out.

Would the T206's and other cards have been printed on these Steve?



Here's the patent information on the multi color press that Hett invented and sold to American Lithograph.
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...e/US637603.pdf

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Would the T206's and other cards have been printed on these Steve?



Here's the patent information on the multi color press that Hett invented and sold to American Lithograph.
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...e/US637603.pdf

I believe that some were. Most of the missing color cards are missing two colors. And a lot of cards show pairs of colors in registration with each other but not other colors.

The cards with the nail mark on the other hand are almost for sure a product of a flatbed press, as the nail would have been in the impression cylinder, and there's no reason a press with metal rollers would have a nail.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe that some were. Most of the missing color cards are missing two colors. And a lot of cards show pairs of colors in registration with each other but not other colors.

The cards with the nail mark on the other hand are almost for sure a product of a flatbed press, as the nail would have been in the impression cylinder, and there's no reason a press with metal rollers would have a nail.

I thought about that card when I asked the question and it's one of the many reasons I think different presses and or facility's might have been used on some sheets.
[IMG][/IMG]

What do you think about the possibility of some sheets having the fronts printed on this type of press and the backs printed on a different type press?

[steve B]

It's possible.

Personally I'm surprised they didn't print the backs first. There's always some damage and wasted sheets and avoiding wasting sheets you already put at least 8 colors on seems a bit crazy.

The only reason I can think of it using the same fronts, "stocking" a lot of them and printing backs as needed for different brands.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's possible.

Personally I'm surprised they didn't print the backs first. There's always some damage and wasted sheets and avoiding wasting sheets you already put at least 8 colors on seems a bit crazy.

The only reason I can think of it using the same fronts, "stocking" a lot of them and printing backs as needed for different brands.

I think there's to much evidence that they didn't do this.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

[/B]

I think there's to much evidence that they didn't do this.

Well, that's the rabbit hole of T206....

To me there's some evidence they did it with some brands, especially in the 350's where there are shared groupings of prints/no prints.
The big brands, Piedmont, SC and maybe a couple others were probably produced almost continually, while others like the SL groups were probably on-offs at first.

That's why a ton more study of the tiny details is needed.
For example, on a simple one.
The Hindu and original OM Sl players were probably printed from a common set of fronts. If we examine a lot of fronts closely, we will either see no difference making a point for a single front press run getting two different backs. If we can tell the difference, that would almost certainly prove each brand got its own front plates.

There being probable different presses and locations makes it all the more complicated. But the place to start is with the more finite groups.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by steve B

That would indicate to me that T206 production probably happened at both ALC and Brett litho. (And possibly other places)

I'm wondering if Brett did the fronts and American Litho the backs. I found out a little while ago from a reliable source that Topps printed their backs first then sent them to another printer to run the fronts. Could this have happened with the ATC sets?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I'm wondering if Brett did the fronts and American Litho the backs. I found out a little while ago from a reliable source that Topps printed their backs first then sent them to another printer to run the fronts. Could this have happened with the ATC sets?

I'm not sure if this is what your saying Dave but the T206 fronts were definitely printed first not the backs.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'm not sure if this is what your saying Dave but the T206 fronts were definitely printed first not the backs.

Yes, that's indeed what I was saying-it makes sense to me the backs could have been printed at American Litho once the front printed sheets were sent there. I forget the exact AL addy (18th St ?) but it's about five miles from their location uptown to Brett using 20 blocks to the mile

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Yes, that's indeed what I was saying-it makes sense to me the backs could have been printed at American Litho once the front printed sheets were sent there. I forget the exact AL addy (18th St ?) but it's about five miles from their location uptown to Brett using 20 blocks to the mile

It was 19th street and 4th Avenue.

[G1911]

I can't find solid proof of the connection between ALC and Brett, but I think they are probably really the same company but different locations and branding (If they aren't, the phrasing of the Ball and Hyland letters would suggest the printers couldn't both print an athletes image, image was given to one litho company and not the tobacco issuer). I agree that this makes it likely T206 was printed in multiple locations considering the broad timespan of its print run, though don't think anyone has found the definitive proof yet.

Still can't find this "Old Masters Co." name Fullgraff was using as an actual company.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I'm wondering if Brett did the fronts and American Litho the backs. I found out a little while ago from a reliable source that Topps printed their backs first then sent them to another printer to run the fronts. Could this have happened with the ATC sets?

It's possible, but I'm trying to think why they would.
If Brett was involved, it was probably because they had higher speed equipment. It doesn't make much sense to print on high speed equipment, then ship the stuff somewhere else that had slower equipment to finish it.

The Topps thing is puzzling too. Assuming it was done in the junkwax era, it would require shipping massive amounts of sheets. There are noticeable differences within many years going back into the 60's, and especially different inks.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's possible, but I'm trying to think why they would.
If Brett was involved, it was probably because they had higher speed equipment. It doesn't make much sense to print on high speed equipment, then ship the stuff somewhere else that had slower equipment to finish it.

The Topps thing is puzzling too. Assuming it was done in the junkwax era, it would require shipping massive amounts of sheets. There are noticeable differences within many years going back into the 60's, and especially different inks.

I highly doubt this Steve, it's clear American Lithograph was the biggest back then and it seemed they wanted everyone to know they were the biggest and the best They actually made a good pairing with the American Tobacco CO.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I highly doubt this Steve, it's clear American Lithograph was the biggest back then and it seemed they wanted everyone to know they were the biggest and the best They actually made a good pairing with the American Tobacco CO.

The numbers I came up with using the number of passes required and Scot Rs estimates on overall production combined with some info about the sheet rate of the flatbed presses worked out so that constant production would have been necessary just to get them all made. And that's also using a fairly large sheet size, and not counting anything but press time.

Running multiple presses would make it possible, but a big busy shop keeping at least two presses in constant production seems unusual.
The place I was at did a job that was a million 2 part deposit tickets for a big bank. Heat sealed into packs of I think a couple hundred. Two colors, so two passes through the press. With modern sheetfed rotary presses that still took a month plus. Upwards of 200 million cards with 9 passes. on a machine that maxed out around 1200 sheets an hour is somewhat crazy.

The description of Bretts rotary press says 10-12000 sheets a day, which seems low. It's possible they understated the speed to keep it sort of a trade secret. The Rubel rotary offset press which was built around the same time could do around 2500/hr making it about twice as fast.

The stamp on the back of the T220's indicates Brett was involved with those, either as a part of ALC, or as a subcontractor.
And that second ledger shows some very substantial quantities produced for other sets probably by someone else.

I've been thinking that instead of the masters being changed a couple times over the course of both the 150's and 350's the differences I've seen may be differences between printers. It's going to take a pretty major project to really get somewhere on just cataloging those differences.

I'm not sure if there's a way to tell if something came off a flatbed press or a rotary for an item like cards. With some other stuff the plates were made flat and bent to fit the cylinder in the press, which changed the image size.
But that may not have happened on a lithographic press. especially if the transfers were applied directly to a cylinder.
Another thing that would take some study, to see if some percentage of any particular subject had image size differences, which would be small, around half a millimeter if the rotary plate was fairly thick.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

The numbers I came up with using the number of passes required and Scot Rs estimates on overall production combined with some info about the sheet rate of the flatbed presses worked out so that constant production would have been necessary just to get them all made. And that's also using a fairly large sheet size, and not counting anything but press time.

Running multiple presses would make it possible, but a big busy shop keeping at least two presses in constant production seems unusual.
The place I was at did a job that was a million 2 part deposit tickets for a big bank. Heat sealed into packs of I think a couple hundred. Two colors, so two passes through the press. With modern sheetfed rotary presses that still took a month plus. Upwards of 200 million cards with 9 passes. on a machine that maxed out around 1200 sheets an hour is somewhat crazy.

The description of Bretts rotary press says 10-12000 sheets a day, which seems low. It's possible they understated the speed to keep it sort of a trade secret. The Rubel rotary offset press which was built around the same time could do around 2500/hr making it about twice as fast.

The stamp on the back of the T220's indicates Brett was involved with those, either as a part of ALC, or as a subcontractor.
And that second ledger shows some very substantial quantities produced for other sets probably by someone else.

I've been thinking that instead of the masters being changed a couple times over the course of both the 150's and 350's the differences I've seen may be differences between printers. It's going to take a pretty major project to really get somewhere on just cataloging those differences.

I'm not sure if there's a way to tell if something came off a flatbed press or a rotary for an item like cards. With some other stuff the plates were made flat and bent to fit the cylinder in the press, which changed the image size.
But that may not have happened on a lithographic press. especially if the transfers were applied directly to a cylinder.
Another thing that would take some study, to see if some percentage of any particular subject had image size differences, which would be small, around half a millimeter if the rotary plate was fairly thick.

I'm pretty sure American Lithograph would have had several presses printing the T206's. I'll have to check but I think it was in the court documents in Greg's T220 thread involving Folgraff that American Lithograph said they would open up 28 of their presses for one of the projects.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's possible, but I'm trying to think why they would.
If Brett was involved, it was probably because they had higher speed equipment. It doesn't make much sense to print on high speed equipment, then ship the stuff somewhere else that had slower equipment to finish it.

The Topps thing is puzzling too. Assuming it was done in the junkwax era, it would require shipping massive amounts of sheets. There are noticeable differences within many years going back into the 60's, and especially different inks.

I agree it is puzzling but do note Topps used close to a dozen different printers overall; this was before junk wax but it's not clear how far back the practice started. The sheets would be trucked from the first location to the second. if ATC did this, drayage within NYC would be possible between the two shops. Anyway, just pointing it out as a possibility.