PWCC Auctions - Mystery Bid Post Auction?

[chadeast]

Hanlon's razor (not Ned) applies. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

[sb1]

So.. I won a few lots for resale. Won them at fair prices with some minor competition but liked the closing.

Invoice was correct and all prices matched my bid history.

That's the good news.

I paid my invoice by CC and somehow missed the various options to where the have my items sent(the few items that I have won on ebay over the years have always went to me my house or PO Box).

Now I have learned that by default they went to the vault(I discovered this after I saw no shipping charge). I contacted them immediately by their preferred chat method and was quickly entered into a back and forth conversation to amend the shipping error or so one would think.

My items were sent to the vault and they will not change the address. I have to wait approximately 20-25 days for the items to be curated into the vault and then request they be sent to me......I tried reasoning with them to no avail, that there must be some kind of remedy.

BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN PAYING YOUR INVOICE, the VAULT is the default address now, no matter where you had items sent before.

Scott

PWCC has reached out to me and helped expedite the process, please see my post below #33.

[bobbyw8469]

Very odd.....you can buy your cards and not take possession of them??? No thanks!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by sb1

So.. I won a few lots for resale. Won them at fair prices with some minor competition but liked the closing.

Invoice was correct and all prices matched my bid history.

That's the good news.

I paid my invoice by CC and somehow missed the various options to where the have my items sent(the few items that I have won on ebay over the years have always went to me my house or PO Box).

Now I have learned that by default they went to the vault(I discovered this after I saw no shipping charge). I contacted them immediately by their preferred chat method and was quickly entered into a back and forth conversation to amend the shipping error or so one would think.

My items were sent to the vault and they will not change the address. I have to wait approximately 20-25 days for the items to be curated into the vault and then request they be sent to me......I tried reasoning with them to no avail, that there must be some kind of remedy.

BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN PAYING YOUR INVOICE, the VAULT is the default address now, no matter where you had items sent before.

Scott

That...is stupid.

You'd think they'd be eager to make you happy so your first experience on their new platform is a positive one.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by Tabe

That...is stupid.

You'd think they'd be eager to make you happy so your first experience on their new platform is a positive one.

Try getting your broker to send you paper stock certificates some time.

Added in edit: One thing that really stood out to me on the new PWCC platform is that the cards are described as "assets." It says a lot about how PWCC views their business.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Try getting your broker to send you paper stock certificates some time.

Added in edit: One thing that really stood out to me on the new PWCC platform is that the cards are described as "assets." It says a lot about how PWCC views their business.

He adopted that term years ago pre-scandal. To his credit he anticipated a long time ago how cards would increasingly be viewed as commodities to be invested in.

[sb1]

Follow up......

So I reached out to Brent via email and within the hour I was contacted by a very helpful CS rep who while unable to reverse what I had done, was able to fasttrack the cards thru curation and into the Vault upon which I can have them sent to me. The curation should be done by weeks end, so only a few days longer than it would have been, had it processed as I thought it had.

The rep was most helpful and responsive.

Again, if you are paying for these items online just go slow and click the right boxes..

Scott

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by sb1

Follow up......

So I reached out to Brent via email and within the hour I was contacted by a very helpful CS rep who while unable to reverse what I had done, was able to fasttrack the cards thru curation and into the Vault upon which I can have them sent to me. The curation should be done by weeks end, so only a few days longer than it would have been, had it processed as I thought it had.

The rep was most helpful and responsive.

Again, if you are paying for these items online just go slow and click the right boxes..

Scott

Is the shipping fee reasonable? If not disclosed up front I'd be concerned about excessive handling and processing fees

[sb1]

Originally Posted by Tabe

That...is stupid.

You'd think they'd be eager to make you happy so your first experience on their new platform is a positive one.

Well they did try to be helpful and told me I "should have paid attention" when checking out....

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by sb1

So.. I won a few lots for resale. Won them at fair prices with some minor competition but liked the closing.

Invoice was correct and all prices matched my bid history.

That's the good news.

I paid my invoice by CC and somehow missed the various options to where the have my items sent(the few items that I have won on ebay over the years have always went to me my house or PO Box).

Now I have learned that by default they went to the vault(I discovered this after I saw no shipping charge). I contacted them immediately by their preferred chat method and was quickly entered into a back and forth conversation to amend the shipping error or so one would think.

My items were sent to the vault and they will not change the address. I have to wait approximately 20-25 days for the items to be curated into the vault and then request they be sent to me......I tried reasoning with them to no avail, that there must be some kind of remedy.

BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN PAYING YOUR INVOICE, the VAULT is the default address now, no matter where you had items sent before.

Scott

PWCC has reached out to me and helped expedite the process, please see my post below #33.

Scott, I was bidding on one relatively high-priced card (1914 CJ Lajoie) and ultimately decided to stand down in the 4th extended bidding because I was afraid the card would go into their vault and not sent to me; and I could not figure out how to change that. I think it’s real crappy that their default is into the vault and they make it very tough to change it, if at all. I don’t want them, or Goldin or anyone else with a vault, holding my cards and I think it’s shitty that that’s the default. So, until that “glitch” gets changed, I have placed my last bid in a pwcc auction.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Scott, I was bidding on one relatively high-priced card (1914 CJ Lajoie) and ultimately decided to stand down in the 4th extended bidding because I was afraid the card would go into their vault and not sent to me; and I could not figure out how to change that. I think it’s real crappy that their default is into the vault and they make it very tough to change it, if at all. I don’t want them, or Goldin or anyone else with a vault, holding my cards and I think it’s shitty that that’s the default. So, until that “glitch” gets changed, I have placed my last bid in a pwcc auction.

\

Ryan,

When I went to pay originally, the option to choose where you wanted the cards sent was presented, Vault or my address on record(Vault was the highlighted default). I of course opted to have them sent directly to me. However, the invoice had tax included, so I provided my resale cert and they promptly adjusted the invoice. When I went back to the corrected invoice and paid, the shipping option had defaulted back to the Vault and I did not catch it. Really nothing nefarious, just a business steering their customers where they prefer them to go. I SHOULD have double checked everything, I ASSUMED and we all know how that story goes.

Once I contacted Brent, they promptly took care of it to the best or their ability. As of now the items already show in my Vault, not able to request them yet, but not worried as everything is working out as they said it would.

I would like to point out to everyone that during this entire email/chat/posting here, that I was precise, cordial and polite, no stones were thrown and it was handled very professionally by them on their end. I think that is about all you can ask when things go a bit sideways. It's easy to start the name calling and accusations, especially on an internet forum, not so easy to undo them.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by sb1

\

Ryan,

When I went to pay originally, the option to choose where you wanted the cards sent was presented, Vault or my address on record(Vault was the highlighted default). I of course opted to have them sent directly to me. However, the invoice had tax included, so I provided my resale cert and they promptly adjusted the invoice. When I went back to the corrected invoice and paid, the shipping option had defaulted back to the Vault and I did not catch it. Really nothing nefarious, just a business steering their customers where they prefer them to go. I SHOULD have double checked everything, I ASSUMED and we all know how that story goes.

Once I contacted Brent, they promptly took care of it to the best or their ability. As of now the items already show in my Vault, not able to request them yet, but not worried as everything is working out as they said it would.

I would like to point out to everyone that during this entire email/chat/posting here, that I was precise, cordial and polite, no stones were thrown and it was handled very professionally by them on their end. I think that is about all you can ask when things go a bit sideways. It's easy to start the name calling and accusations, especially on an internet forum, not so easy to undo them.

Scott, thanks for clarifying. That said, I still do not like that the default is vault and that I need to take an extra step to have the card sent to me.

I agree that in ALL of my interactions with PWCC they are very responsive, helpful and polite. They certainly do customer service right. That said, I just don’t like that I need to be mindful to change preferences in order to get my cards - it just feels like a trap for the unweary (and I am an unweary!).

That should be changed - the default should be all cards and/or payouts are sent out unless one formally opts to have card put in vault or money kept on account

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by sb1

So.. I won a few lots for resale. Won them at fair prices with some minor competition but liked the closing.

Invoice was correct and all prices matched my bid history.

That's the good news.

I paid my invoice by CC and somehow missed the various options to where the have my items sent(the few items that I have won on ebay over the years have always went to me my house or PO Box).

Now I have learned that by default they went to the vault(I discovered this after I saw no shipping charge). I contacted them immediately by their preferred chat method and was quickly entered into a back and forth conversation to amend the shipping error or so one would think.

My items were sent to the vault and they will not change the address. I have to wait approximately 20-25 days for the items to be curated into the vault and then request they be sent to me......I tried reasoning with them to no avail, that there must be some kind of remedy.

BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN PAYING YOUR INVOICE, the VAULT is the default address now, no matter where you had items sent before.

Scott

PWCC has reached out to me and helped expedite the process, please see my post below #33.

I don't know about your state, but in Wisconsin, if you have your items sent to the vault and don't pay sales tax, when the cards are sent to your address in Wisconsin, they become taxable and you will have to pay use tax on the purchase.

[sb1]

PWCC has my TX resale certificate on file.....these are for resale.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by sb1

PWCC has my TX resale certificate on file.....these are for resale.

You buy from PWCC for resale??? Is that even possible?? That is like me buying from Dean's Cards for resale. Sorry, but the bone has been picked clean.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

You buy from PWCC for resale??? Is that even possible?? That is like me buying from Dean's Cards for resale. Sorry, but the bone has been picked clean.

There were many good pre-war deals, just in the small amount I was tracking. I passed on a few that were just marginally good as the bidding progressed, and hung in to get the better ones.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by buymycards

I don't know about your state, but in Wisconsin, if you have your items sent to the vault and don't pay sales tax, when the cards are sent to your address in Wisconsin, they become taxable and you will have to pay use tax on the purchase.

This is most likely the case for someone that lives in any of the 45 states that have a sales AND use tax. So people thinking they can buy through PWCC and initially have their purchases go to PWCC's Oregon vault where no sales tax is charged, and then subsequently requesting their items be sent to them at their home address, need to remember that they then owe the use tax on those purchased items to the state/county they subsequently have their items sent to. I would advise anyone thinking of doing something like this to maybe first check with their accountant or other tax professionals, and to also review the sales and use tax laws for their respective state of residency. I am fairly confident though that regardless of which of the 45 states that have sales and use taxes, if you live in one of them and try to use a vault to get out of paying sales tax and then right away have the vault company just forward to you the items you had just purchased, you have most likely technically triggered a use tax liability equal to what the sales tax would have been on the original purchase.

There are always going to be people that view a vault like PWCC's or Goldin's, that were intentionally set up in states that do not have sales taxes, as a way to get around having to pay sales tax on their purchases, especially since Ebay and more and more AHs are now collecting sales taxes due to changes in the sales tax laws following a Supreme Court ruling from a few years back. PWCC and Goldin use this as a marketing technique to attract more customers, since they offer buyers a way around sales taxes. And it is also a way to assure and increase future consignments for both companies should people leaving items in their vaults subsequently decide to sell something. If a person decides to sell an item and asks PWCC or Goldin for it back to do so, or that it be sent to another AH or consignment seller to be sold on their behalf, then I believe technically they may have triggered the use tax on the original purchase of the item now being sold. If the person wishing to sell an item in a vault just consigns it back over to PWCC or Goldin, it never leaves the non-sales taxing states those two companies are operating out of, and the seller doesn't trigger use tax on the sale of the item. And the subsequent sale by PWCC or Goldin of this consigned item to a new owner affords both sellers the chance to entice/persuade/coerce the new owner to avail themselves of the respective vaults they both operate. Which in turn gives PWCC and Goldin an inside track to gain future consignments from this new seller as well, and on and on. It is a somewhat ingenious way both PWCC and Goldin can take advantage of the inherent greed in many people by having devised a way for them to get out of paying sales taxes on purchases, but also kind of locks those people in to staying only with PWCC or Goldin if they want to maintain that sales/use tax-free status going forward then.

Obviously a vault isn't for everyone, especially the old guard hobby collectors and purists who want to actually be able to hold and look at their cards and collectibles in hand, not just look at scans. But with a vault, an owner doesn't have to worry about where or how to store items, probably helps for insurance and record keeping purposes also since everything will be catalogued and supposedly maintained in a safe and secure environment. And if they do want to share what they own with others, I'm assuming they either have or can get a digital record of what they do have residing in a vault. And as already noted, if an owner does decide to let something go, they can easily and simply just have it consigned to the brother/sister company of the vault that handles sales.

And a vault obviously isn't needed (or wanted probably) by a dealer who already is registered as such and can supply a resale sales tax exemption certificate to whomever they are buying something from, as a vault doesn't save them any sales taxes.

However, there is a potential grey area in regards to triggering use tax when it comes to taking things out of a vault and having them sent to a state that does have a sales and use tax. If you buy something, have it put into into a sales tax-free vault, and then right away take it back out of the vault and have it sent to your home, that should most definitely trigger a use tax liability if you reside in a state with a sales tax. But what if you wait 6 months before taking an item out of a vault, or a year, or 5 years? To my knowledge, individual states do not have general or specific time threshholds on how long you may have owned something like baseball cards before it is exempt from use tax when bringing it into a new state. Think of this. What if you lived in a sales tax free state your entire life, and had all your furniture, clothing, and belongings purchased in that same state, so you never paid sales tax on anything. And then you move and take all your belongings, furniture, and clothes with you to your new home, in a state that does have sales tax. Do you now have to suddenly pay use tax on everything you had acquired over your entire lifetime to the state you just moved to? Most likely not. But what about on a new living room set you purchased in your old state with no sales taxes the week before you moved to your new home state? See how complicated this can get? This is again a reason to review your own particular case with your accountant or tax professional if you are planning on removing items from a vault, and to also review the sales and use tax laws for the applicable state you're going to move those items to.

What I don't know is what, if anything, PWCC and Goldin tell their vault customers in regards to sales and use tax issues, and if they even try to forewarn them of any potential sales/use tax liabilities if they remove items from a vault. Maybe some people that do use their vaults can fill us in and share what they know. I would also not be surprised if down the road, companies that set up sales tax-free vaults like this don't start to attract the attention of other states that do charge sales and use taxes, and potentially try to force the vaults to report/share information with them.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by BobC

However, there is a potential grey area in regards to triggering use tax when it comes to taking things out of a vault and having them sent to a state that does have a sales and use tax. If you buy something, have it put into into a sales tax-free vault, and then right away take it back out of the vault and have it sent to your home, that should most definitely trigger a use tax liability if you reside in a state with a sales tax. But what if you wait 6 months before taking an item out of a vault, or a year, or 5 years? To my knowledge, individual states do not have general or specific time threshholds on how long you may have owned something like baseball cards before it is exempt from use tax when bringing it into a new state. Think of this. What if you lived in a sales tax free state your entire life, and had all your furniture, clothing, and belongings purchased in that same state, so you never paid sales tax on anything. And then you move and take all your belongings, furniture, and clothes with you to your new home, in a state that does have sales tax. Do you now have to suddenly pay use tax on everything you had acquired over your entire lifetime to the state you just moved to? Most likely not. But what about on a new living room set you purchased in your old state with no sales taxes the week before you moved to your new home state? See how complicated this can get? This is again a reason to review your own particular case with your accountant or tax professional if you are planning on removing items from a vault, and to also review the sales and use tax laws for the applicable state you're going to move those items to.

I would think that the use tax would only be due on purchases you made while a resident of the state so anything you owned prior to moving to a new state with a use tax would not be subject to the use tax.

[mrreality68]

The concept is potentially good for the right person. ie investors. Also many like it so that you can take a loan against it (in some cases) for extra funds
Other auction houses are trying to duplicate this basic concept.
But I am more a collector and would prefer to have the cards under my control and more accessible.
Also since I am not comfortable in general with PWCC reputation it just makes me pause.
In addition the time it can take to get the card processed in and out of their vault also concerns me(as mentioned above in the thread)

So I am sure this service is right for many people and all well and good but it is just not for me

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

The concept is potentially good for the right person. ie investors. Also many like it so that you can take a loan against it (in some cases) for extra funds
Other auction houses are trying to duplicate this basic concept.
But I am more a collector and would prefer to have the cards under my control and more accessible.
Also since I am not comfortable in general with PWCC reputation it just makes me pause.
In addition the time it can take to get the card processed in and out of their vault also concerns me(as mentioned above in the thread)

So I am sure this service is right for many people and all well and good but it is just not for me

Right you are Jeff. I didn't even get into the loan aspect of what they are offering, that is a whole other kettle of fish. But you're correct, the PWCC vault concept and how they are presenting and handling things, is akin to working with an investment advisory firm that holds your investments for you, assists in sales and purchases, and even gives out margin loans. About the only thing they don't do, at least not yet, is have you just open an account with them in which you simply deposit money, and then they go out and acquire cards for you that they feel will be good investments and grow in value for you down the road. I think if they did start doing that though, they may cross a line where they could possibly be viewed as a form of bona fide investment advisor, and actually become subject to all the applicable federal and state laws, licensing and the myriad of rules and regulations that have to be followed. Which I seriously doubt they would want to do, at least not now.

Who knows down the road though? They clearly are smart and ahead of the game in realizing that our wonderful little hobby has gone from being just that, a simple hobby, to a booming industry with surging prices that have caught and grabbed ahold of the attention and interest of serious people in the investment industry. They've set themselves up to be at the forefront of this change from being a pure hobby to more of a serious investment vehicle. Just look at some of the threads we've had recently talking about a potential IPO by Topps, which was undermind by strategic investments of various professional sports leagues and player groups in a major distribution company which then apparently stole future licensing rights right out of the hands of Topps and other card companies. Or the takeover and privatization of the major TPG of our hobby, quickly followed by the announcement of their acquisition of another company heavy into AI technology. Heck, we're starting to read like the Wall Street Journal in some threads. The only thing we're still missing is for Warren Buffet to come out during Berkshire-Hathaway's next annual meeting and declare they're going to start heavily investing in sports cards. And if Buffet were to go even further and expand on how they'll focus on acquiring cards of who he felt was the greatest pre-war baseball player ever, and didn't name Ruth............I can only imagine the thread(s) that would generate on this forum!!!!!!!!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I would think that the use tax would only be due on purchases you made while a resident of the state so anything you owned prior to moving to a new state with a use tax would not be subject to the use tax.

And that is why I specifically mentioned the purchase of the new living room set just before you move, and presumably just after you purchased the house in the new state. To show differences in the circumstances and how there isn't always a simple, straightforward answer to a question like this.

Here's another way to look at this though. Say you have a house and live in a state with a sales tax, but also own a second home (vacation home) in a state without sales tax. And all the furnishings and belongings in the vacation home were purchased in that state so no sales taxes were paid on any of the belongings and furnishings in it. And then after years of owning the vacation home you had to sell it, and end up moving all the furnishings and belongings in it back to your main home in a state with sales and use taxes. Do you now owe use tax on everything you brought back to your main home and state you officially reside in, even if items you brought back were originally purchased years, or even decades, ago? See how this can get confusing?

I bring up the concept of a time threshhold because though most states don't generally have any actually written into their sales and use tax laws, there are specific instances where such a time threshhold can exist in some circumstances. Say in my example the main house was in California and the vacation home in Oregon, which is where PWCC and their vault is, with no sales taxes. And in addition to all the belongings and furnishings in the vacation home being purchased in Oregon without sales taxes, the owner had purchased a car that is licensed, registered and been kept at the Oregon property also. So no sales tax was paid on it either. And again, for whatever reason, the Oregon vacation home is sold and everything is moved back to the main residence in California, including the car. Now California sales tax laws say nothing specific in this case about potential use tax owed on the furnishings and other belongings, but they do have very specific rules regarding the car. In this case, if the car had been originally purchased in Oregon less than one year ago before now moving it to California, the owner owes sales tax to California in the amount of whatever the sales tax would have been had the owner originally purchased the car in Calfornia, less the actual sales tax originally paid when the car was actually purchased in Oregon. And in this case since Oregon has no sales tax, California is owed sales tax on the original sales price, in full. However, if the car had been purchased one year or more before moving it from Oregon to California, then under California law the car is now exempt from sales and use taxes entirely, and the car owner owes $0 to California for sales/use tax.

And this is what I mean about a possible implied time threshhold for the exemption from use tax for property being brought into a state. In this case, if California is going to exempt sales/use tax charged on a car purchased more than a year before moving it to CA, you would assume and expect that they would at least give the same time period threshhold for exemption from sales/use tax for all other property being brought into the state, such as furnishings and other belongings. But since nothing is specifically written in CA sales and use law like this exemption for property other than vehicles, I would advise checking with a tax professional familiar with CA sales and use tax laws, and even contacting the appropriate CA taxing authority to see if they can provide further guidance on a potential time threshhold for use tax exeption of other property being brought into the state.

Now this example and rule regarding cars is specically just for California. You would want to look into and review the sales and use tax laws in whatever state you would be moving property to, to see if you can find similar instances like CA where they specify a time threshhold for a use tax exemption, and likewise contact a tax professional knowledgeable in that particular state, as well as actually contacting the appropriate state taxing authority for additional insight and to see what they can tell you about possible time threshholds for use tax exemption.

So at the end of the day, items you put into a sales tax-free vault may be removable at some point without triggering use tax. But, you need to research it and look into the sales and use tax laws of the applicable state(s) involved.

Clear as mud, right? Welcome to the world of taxes, and in this case specifically state sales tax law.

[55koufax]

I won a lot of cards the past two nights from PWCC and am bidding on a dozen more tonight. I believe their platform is very slow, and not the most use friendly. That said, eBay may be faster, but PWCC customer service is way better IMO. Hands down. Now I will be looking over that final invoice very carefully.

Bummed as I lost out on the '55 Jackie Robinson 8. And by only one increment. Rats!

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

I won a lot of cards the past two nights from PWCC and am bidding on a dozen more tonight. I believe their platform is very slow, and not the most use friendly. That said, eBay may be faster, but PWCC customer service is way better IMO. Hands down. Now I will be looking over that final invoice very carefully.

Bummed as I lost out on the '55 Jackie Robinson 8. And by only one increment. Rats!

Damn. That was a nice looking card too. I was watching that one.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by chadeast

Hanlon's razor (not Ned) applies. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

Is there a razor which would attribute things to a blend of malice and incompetence?

[Snowman]

I bid on quite a few cards in this auction. I just checked my bidding log spreadsheet and compared those prices against the ones from my invoice. I wrote down the listed hammer price at the conclusion of the auctions for every card I won. It looks like I won 32 cards. Of those 32, 26 show the same price and 6 do not. However, the prices that are listed on my invoice are all lower than the prices shown on the website at the conclusion of the auction, not higher. Based on my sample data, I believe it is also showing my max bid amount on the website as the hammer price, whereas the invoice via email has the actual winning bid amounts (which are lower). But when I click the link in the email to go to checkout, I am given the higher amounts.

I imagine this must be a glitch in their system that will get sorted out asap. I don't think they are stupid enough to have done this intentionally. I expect they'll send out emails correcting/addressing this shortly. If not, I will start shitting on them too.