PWCC Auctions - Mystery Bid Post Auction?

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by sb1

So.. I won a few lots for resale. Won them at fair prices with some minor competition but liked the closing.

Invoice was correct and all prices matched my bid history.

That's the good news.

I paid my invoice by CC and somehow missed the various options to where the have my items sent(the few items that I have won on ebay over the years have always went to me my house or PO Box).

Now I have learned that by default they went to the vault(I discovered this after I saw no shipping charge). I contacted them immediately by their preferred chat method and was quickly entered into a back and forth conversation to amend the shipping error or so one would think.

My items were sent to the vault and they will not change the address. I have to wait approximately 20-25 days for the items to be curated into the vault and then request they be sent to me......I tried reasoning with them to no avail, that there must be some kind of remedy.

BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN PAYING YOUR INVOICE, the VAULT is the default address now, no matter where you had items sent before.

Scott

PWCC has reached out to me and helped expedite the process, please see my post below #33.

I don't know about your state, but in Wisconsin, if you have your items sent to the vault and don't pay sales tax, when the cards are sent to your address in Wisconsin, they become taxable and you will have to pay use tax on the purchase.

[sb1]

PWCC has my TX resale certificate on file.....these are for resale.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by sb1

PWCC has my TX resale certificate on file.....these are for resale.

You buy from PWCC for resale??? Is that even possible?? That is like me buying from Dean's Cards for resale. Sorry, but the bone has been picked clean.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

You buy from PWCC for resale??? Is that even possible?? That is like me buying from Dean's Cards for resale. Sorry, but the bone has been picked clean.

There were many good pre-war deals, just in the small amount I was tracking. I passed on a few that were just marginally good as the bidding progressed, and hung in to get the better ones.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by buymycards

I don't know about your state, but in Wisconsin, if you have your items sent to the vault and don't pay sales tax, when the cards are sent to your address in Wisconsin, they become taxable and you will have to pay use tax on the purchase.

This is most likely the case for someone that lives in any of the 45 states that have a sales AND use tax. So people thinking they can buy through PWCC and initially have their purchases go to PWCC's Oregon vault where no sales tax is charged, and then subsequently requesting their items be sent to them at their home address, need to remember that they then owe the use tax on those purchased items to the state/county they subsequently have their items sent to. I would advise anyone thinking of doing something like this to maybe first check with their accountant or other tax professionals, and to also review the sales and use tax laws for their respective state of residency. I am fairly confident though that regardless of which of the 45 states that have sales and use taxes, if you live in one of them and try to use a vault to get out of paying sales tax and then right away have the vault company just forward to you the items you had just purchased, you have most likely technically triggered a use tax liability equal to what the sales tax would have been on the original purchase.

There are always going to be people that view a vault like PWCC's or Goldin's, that were intentionally set up in states that do not have sales taxes, as a way to get around having to pay sales tax on their purchases, especially since Ebay and more and more AHs are now collecting sales taxes due to changes in the sales tax laws following a Supreme Court ruling from a few years back. PWCC and Goldin use this as a marketing technique to attract more customers, since they offer buyers a way around sales taxes. And it is also a way to assure and increase future consignments for both companies should people leaving items in their vaults subsequently decide to sell something. If a person decides to sell an item and asks PWCC or Goldin for it back to do so, or that it be sent to another AH or consignment seller to be sold on their behalf, then I believe technically they may have triggered the use tax on the original purchase of the item now being sold. If the person wishing to sell an item in a vault just consigns it back over to PWCC or Goldin, it never leaves the non-sales taxing states those two companies are operating out of, and the seller doesn't trigger use tax on the sale of the item. And the subsequent sale by PWCC or Goldin of this consigned item to a new owner affords both sellers the chance to entice/persuade/coerce the new owner to avail themselves of the respective vaults they both operate. Which in turn gives PWCC and Goldin an inside track to gain future consignments from this new seller as well, and on and on. It is a somewhat ingenious way both PWCC and Goldin can take advantage of the inherent greed in many people by having devised a way for them to get out of paying sales taxes on purchases, but also kind of locks those people in to staying only with PWCC or Goldin if they want to maintain that sales/use tax-free status going forward then.

Obviously a vault isn't for everyone, especially the old guard hobby collectors and purists who want to actually be able to hold and look at their cards and collectibles in hand, not just look at scans. But with a vault, an owner doesn't have to worry about where or how to store items, probably helps for insurance and record keeping purposes also since everything will be catalogued and supposedly maintained in a safe and secure environment. And if they do want to share what they own with others, I'm assuming they either have or can get a digital record of what they do have residing in a vault. And as already noted, if an owner does decide to let something go, they can easily and simply just have it consigned to the brother/sister company of the vault that handles sales.

And a vault obviously isn't needed (or wanted probably) by a dealer who already is registered as such and can supply a resale sales tax exemption certificate to whomever they are buying something from, as a vault doesn't save them any sales taxes.

However, there is a potential grey area in regards to triggering use tax when it comes to taking things out of a vault and having them sent to a state that does have a sales and use tax. If you buy something, have it put into into a sales tax-free vault, and then right away take it back out of the vault and have it sent to your home, that should most definitely trigger a use tax liability if you reside in a state with a sales tax. But what if you wait 6 months before taking an item out of a vault, or a year, or 5 years? To my knowledge, individual states do not have general or specific time threshholds on how long you may have owned something like baseball cards before it is exempt from use tax when bringing it into a new state. Think of this. What if you lived in a sales tax free state your entire life, and had all your furniture, clothing, and belongings purchased in that same state, so you never paid sales tax on anything. And then you move and take all your belongings, furniture, and clothes with you to your new home, in a state that does have sales tax. Do you now have to suddenly pay use tax on everything you had acquired over your entire lifetime to the state you just moved to? Most likely not. But what about on a new living room set you purchased in your old state with no sales taxes the week before you moved to your new home state? See how complicated this can get? This is again a reason to review your own particular case with your accountant or tax professional if you are planning on removing items from a vault, and to also review the sales and use tax laws for the applicable state you're going to move those items to.

What I don't know is what, if anything, PWCC and Goldin tell their vault customers in regards to sales and use tax issues, and if they even try to forewarn them of any potential sales/use tax liabilities if they remove items from a vault. Maybe some people that do use their vaults can fill us in and share what they know. I would also not be surprised if down the road, companies that set up sales tax-free vaults like this don't start to attract the attention of other states that do charge sales and use taxes, and potentially try to force the vaults to report/share information with them.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by BobC

However, there is a potential grey area in regards to triggering use tax when it comes to taking things out of a vault and having them sent to a state that does have a sales and use tax. If you buy something, have it put into into a sales tax-free vault, and then right away take it back out of the vault and have it sent to your home, that should most definitely trigger a use tax liability if you reside in a state with a sales tax. But what if you wait 6 months before taking an item out of a vault, or a year, or 5 years? To my knowledge, individual states do not have general or specific time threshholds on how long you may have owned something like baseball cards before it is exempt from use tax when bringing it into a new state. Think of this. What if you lived in a sales tax free state your entire life, and had all your furniture, clothing, and belongings purchased in that same state, so you never paid sales tax on anything. And then you move and take all your belongings, furniture, and clothes with you to your new home, in a state that does have sales tax. Do you now have to suddenly pay use tax on everything you had acquired over your entire lifetime to the state you just moved to? Most likely not. But what about on a new living room set you purchased in your old state with no sales taxes the week before you moved to your new home state? See how complicated this can get? This is again a reason to review your own particular case with your accountant or tax professional if you are planning on removing items from a vault, and to also review the sales and use tax laws for the applicable state you're going to move those items to.

I would think that the use tax would only be due on purchases you made while a resident of the state so anything you owned prior to moving to a new state with a use tax would not be subject to the use tax.

[mrreality68]

The concept is potentially good for the right person. ie investors. Also many like it so that you can take a loan against it (in some cases) for extra funds
Other auction houses are trying to duplicate this basic concept.
But I am more a collector and would prefer to have the cards under my control and more accessible.
Also since I am not comfortable in general with PWCC reputation it just makes me pause.
In addition the time it can take to get the card processed in and out of their vault also concerns me(as mentioned above in the thread)

So I am sure this service is right for many people and all well and good but it is just not for me

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

The concept is potentially good for the right person. ie investors. Also many like it so that you can take a loan against it (in some cases) for extra funds
Other auction houses are trying to duplicate this basic concept.
But I am more a collector and would prefer to have the cards under my control and more accessible.
Also since I am not comfortable in general with PWCC reputation it just makes me pause.
In addition the time it can take to get the card processed in and out of their vault also concerns me(as mentioned above in the thread)

So I am sure this service is right for many people and all well and good but it is just not for me

Right you are Jeff. I didn't even get into the loan aspect of what they are offering, that is a whole other kettle of fish. But you're correct, the PWCC vault concept and how they are presenting and handling things, is akin to working with an investment advisory firm that holds your investments for you, assists in sales and purchases, and even gives out margin loans. About the only thing they don't do, at least not yet, is have you just open an account with them in which you simply deposit money, and then they go out and acquire cards for you that they feel will be good investments and grow in value for you down the road. I think if they did start doing that though, they may cross a line where they could possibly be viewed as a form of bona fide investment advisor, and actually become subject to all the applicable federal and state laws, licensing and the myriad of rules and regulations that have to be followed. Which I seriously doubt they would want to do, at least not now.

Who knows down the road though? They clearly are smart and ahead of the game in realizing that our wonderful little hobby has gone from being just that, a simple hobby, to a booming industry with surging prices that have caught and grabbed ahold of the attention and interest of serious people in the investment industry. They've set themselves up to be at the forefront of this change from being a pure hobby to more of a serious investment vehicle. Just look at some of the threads we've had recently talking about a potential IPO by Topps, which was undermind by strategic investments of various professional sports leagues and player groups in a major distribution company which then apparently stole future licensing rights right out of the hands of Topps and other card companies. Or the takeover and privatization of the major TPG of our hobby, quickly followed by the announcement of their acquisition of another company heavy into AI technology. Heck, we're starting to read like the Wall Street Journal in some threads. The only thing we're still missing is for Warren Buffet to come out during Berkshire-Hathaway's next annual meeting and declare they're going to start heavily investing in sports cards. And if Buffet were to go even further and expand on how they'll focus on acquiring cards of who he felt was the greatest pre-war baseball player ever, and didn't name Ruth............I can only imagine the thread(s) that would generate on this forum!!!!!!!!

[Snowman]

PWCC responded to my inquiry. This is what they said regarding the discrepancy between the emailed invoices and the website hammer prices at checkout.

Originally Posted by PWCC

It appears that our system issues out winning bid emails early with the bids that were current when items entered into extended bidding on our website. The invoice you received through your account on our website reflects the correct high value after extended bidding on the item ended. Please rest assured that this is indeed the correct value for your item/s.

This is definitely not correct though. I went into a bidding war on a 1953 Topps willie mays card that was at $2k when extended bidding started. We bid it up multiple times after that, and the card was extended into multiple future time windows. My max bid on the card was set at $2800, which is what it shows at checkout. I took the bidding lead at $2700 and then placed a $2800 max bid after that as a blocker bid. Then the auction ended. I don't know if someone bid me up to $2800 or not, but I do know that the website showed $2800 at the last second after I thought I had it at $2700. My emailed invoice shows $2700 though, not $2,000 which is where it was at when extended bidding started. But at checkout and on the website it shows $2800.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Snowman

PWCC responded to my inquiry. This is what they said regarding the discrepancy between the emailed invoices and the website hammer prices at checkout.



This is definitely not correct though. I went into a bidding war on a 1953 Topps willie mays card that was at $2k when extended bidding started. We bid it up multiple times after that, and the card was extended into multiple future time windows. My max bid on the card was set at $2800, which is what it shows at checkout. I took the bidding lead at $2700 and then placed a $2800 max bid after that as a blocker bid. Then the auction ended. I don't know if someone bid me up to $2800 or not, but I do know that the website showed $2800 at the last second after I thought I had it at $2700. My emailed invoice shows $2700 though, not $2,000 which is where it was at when extended bidding started. But at checkout and on the website it shows $2800.

I think the glitching happened when, during extended bidding, the item was bid up to a previously made max bid.

Example. Card was at $180. I bid $200. Someone comes in during extended and bids $200. I win auction because I bid $200 first.

I got email saying $190 was tots on one like that. Invoice showed the proper $200 when looking now. Waiting to pay and have them shipped to me (which is very easy so I’m not sure what you guys are talking about with being unable to do so) until all weeks auctions are done.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I would think that the use tax would only be due on purchases you made while a resident of the state so anything you owned prior to moving to a new state with a use tax would not be subject to the use tax.

And that is why I specifically mentioned the purchase of the new living room set just before you move, and presumably just after you purchased the house in the new state. To show differences in the circumstances and how there isn't always a simple, straightforward answer to a question like this.

Here's another way to look at this though. Say you have a house and live in a state with a sales tax, but also own a second home (vacation home) in a state without sales tax. And all the furnishings and belongings in the vacation home were purchased in that state so no sales taxes were paid on any of the belongings and furnishings in it. And then after years of owning the vacation home you had to sell it, and end up moving all the furnishings and belongings in it back to your main home in a state with sales and use taxes. Do you now owe use tax on everything you brought back to your main home and state you officially reside in, even if items you brought back were originally purchased years, or even decades, ago? See how this can get confusing?

I bring up the concept of a time threshhold because though most states don't generally have any actually written into their sales and use tax laws, there are specific instances where such a time threshhold can exist in some circumstances. Say in my example the main house was in California and the vacation home in Oregon, which is where PWCC and their vault is, with no sales taxes. And in addition to all the belongings and furnishings in the vacation home being purchased in Oregon without sales taxes, the owner had purchased a car that is licensed, registered and been kept at the Oregon property also. So no sales tax was paid on it either. And again, for whatever reason, the Oregon vacation home is sold and everything is moved back to the main residence in California, including the car. Now California sales tax laws say nothing specific in this case about potential use tax owed on the furnishings and other belongings, but they do have very specific rules regarding the car. In this case, if the car had been originally purchased in Oregon less than one year ago before now moving it to California, the owner owes sales tax to California in the amount of whatever the sales tax would have been had the owner originally purchased the car in Calfornia, less the actual sales tax originally paid when the car was actually purchased in Oregon. And in this case since Oregon has no sales tax, California is owed sales tax on the original sales price, in full. However, if the car had been purchased one year or more before moving it from Oregon to California, then under California law the car is now exempt from sales and use taxes entirely, and the car owner owes $0 to California for sales/use tax.

And this is what I mean about a possible implied time threshhold for the exemption from use tax for property being brought into a state. In this case, if California is going to exempt sales/use tax charged on a car purchased more than a year before moving it to CA, you would assume and expect that they would at least give the same time period threshhold for exemption from sales/use tax for all other property being brought into the state, such as furnishings and other belongings. But since nothing is specifically written in CA sales and use law like this exemption for property other than vehicles, I would advise checking with a tax professional familiar with CA sales and use tax laws, and even contacting the appropriate CA taxing authority to see if they can provide further guidance on a potential time threshhold for use tax exeption of other property being brought into the state.

Now this example and rule regarding cars is specically just for California. You would want to look into and review the sales and use tax laws in whatever state you would be moving property to, to see if you can find similar instances like CA where they specify a time threshhold for a use tax exemption, and likewise contact a tax professional knowledgeable in that particular state, as well as actually contacting the appropriate state taxing authority for additional insight and to see what they can tell you about possible time threshholds for use tax exemption.

So at the end of the day, items you put into a sales tax-free vault may be removable at some point without triggering use tax. But, you need to research it and look into the sales and use tax laws of the applicable state(s) involved.

Clear as mud, right? Welcome to the world of taxes, and in this case specifically state sales tax law.

[55koufax]

I won a lot of cards the past two nights from PWCC and am bidding on a dozen more tonight. I believe their platform is very slow, and not the most use friendly. That said, eBay may be faster, but PWCC customer service is way better IMO. Hands down. Now I will be looking over that final invoice very carefully.

Bummed as I lost out on the '55 Jackie Robinson 8. And by only one increment. Rats!

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

I won a lot of cards the past two nights from PWCC and am bidding on a dozen more tonight. I believe their platform is very slow, and not the most use friendly. That said, eBay may be faster, but PWCC customer service is way better IMO. Hands down. Now I will be looking over that final invoice very carefully.

Bummed as I lost out on the '55 Jackie Robinson 8. And by only one increment. Rats!

Damn. That was a nice looking card too. I was watching that one.

[Kidnapped18]

You guys are making this tax thing way too complicated. The PWCC vault is in Oregon which has 0% sales tax and that is why PWCC is promoting the vault as a way not to pay sales tax. If you elect to to have your cards shipped to your home state and your state does have sales/use tax then PWCC (seller) is obligated to collect the sales tax for your state and remit it to that state's Department of Revenue. If for whatever reason PWCC does not collect the sales tax (which I highly doubt they would) then you (buyer) are obligated to self report any tax owed on either monthly or quarterly basis.

This is not complicated folks.

[sb1]

That is a moot point if you are a business and have a valid resale cert.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

You guys are making this tax thing way too complicated. The PWCC vault is in Oregon which has 0% sales tax and that is why PWCC is promoting the vault as a way not to pay sales tax. If you elect to to have your cards shipped to your home state and your state does have sales/use tax then PWCC (seller) is obligated to collect the sales tax for your state and remit it to that state's Department of Revenue. If for whatever reason PWCC does not collect the sales tax (which I highly doubt they would) then you (buyer) are obligated to self report any tax owed on either monthly or quarterly basis.

This is not complicated folks.

Really?!?!?

So it makes no difference if you leave something in their vault for several years before then asking them to return the item to you? What if you left it there in their vault for over ten years before asking that it be returned? Or what if the item is in their vault for several years and instead of you asking them to return it to you, they go out of business and just ship everything back to you at your home address?

Or how about this, you have an item in their vault and go to sell it, but decide to use a different seller/AH to list and sell it for you. So you have PWCC ship the item directly to your AH of choice, that just so happens to be in a different state than the one you live in. Do you now owe a use tax in the state you live in, even though the item is never shipped to and physically in your state of residence? Or do you possibly now owe a use tax to the state where the AH that is selling it for you is located, even though it will only be there for a short period of time while the AH completes the sale for you?

And for another possible twist, what if you lived in one state when you originally purchased an item that went right into their vault, and a year or two later asked them to now return the item to you. But during the time the item was in their vault you moved to a different state that also had sales and use taxes? Do you have to report and pay the use tax to the state you no longer live in since that was where you were living at the time you originally bought the item and put it into the vault, or do you now owe use tax to the state you had moved to, even though you didn't live in that state when the item was originally purchased?

And now here is the real ass-kicker question. Is the answer to each of these questions I just posed above going to be EXACTLY THE SAME in all 45 U.S. states that impose sales and use taxes on items being purchased?

And for the record, use taxes are not necessarily always reported and paid on a monthly or quarterly filing basis. For example, in Ohio there is a line item on the state's annual individual income tax return where an individual taxpayer (or jointly filing couple) can report any use tax owed on purchases from the prior calendar year. Any such use tax due and reported will then either increase the amount of Ohio income taxes owed, or decrease the state income tax refund that would otherwise be received.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, think twice, even three times, and then still don't make simplified posts with generalized statements in regards to taxes, especially concerning state taxes where the laws and rules can vary in every single state, unless you truly know what you're talking about. Otherwise, all you're doing is putting conflicting information out there that someone else on this forum that doesn't know any better may read and erroneously follow. I thought one of the basic tenets of this forum was to try and help and educate each other. That is simply what I was trying to do for anyone on here who already had items in either PWCC's or Goldin's vault, or was thinking about putting things in their vaults sometime in the future.