PWCC - Sorry, Yet Again

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Umm, because they are knee-deep in the card doctoring scandal and got thrown off eBay for enabling shill bidding on a massive scale. But nothing to see, folks, just look at the labels on the holders and move along.

There ya go injecting truth into things again but that will not stop some.

[Republicaninmass]

You'd have to have your head, and your conscience, examined if you still bid with these guys. You are only "fooling" yourself, and it is only a matter of time. Greedy does make for a hungry puppy.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

You'd have to have your head, and your conscience, examined if you still bid with these guys. You are only "fooling" yourself, and it is only a matter of time. Greedy does make for a hungry puppy.

I've read enough to know that their actions have been thoroughly investigated by the FBI for the laundry list of accusations made on the Blowhard forums. If any of the more serious accusations hold any water whatsoever, then they will be prosecuted. I trust the criminal justice system, for the most part, at least in cases like this. If there is significant wrongdoing by PWCC, we will find out. At that point, I will decide whether or not to continue doing business with them based on those findings. Until then, I will continue to reserve judgment.

Any day now... any day now...

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I've read enough to know that their actions have been thoroughly investigated by the FBI for the laundry list of accusations made on the Blowhard forums. If any of the more serious accusations hold any water whatsoever, then they will be prosecuted. I trust the criminal justice system, for the most part, at least in cases like this. If there is significant wrongdoing by PWCC, we will find out. At that point, I will decide whether or not to continue doing business with them based on those findings. Until then, I will continue to reserve judgment.



Any day now... any day now...

You wrote "Investigated". Would you care to share where the "investigation" has been completed, or is that just the latest banter from your buddies in Lake Oswego, or is it Tigard? I cant keep them straight!



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

You wrote "Investigated". Would you care to share where the "investigation" has been completed, or is that just the latest banter from your buddies in Lake Oswego, or is it Tigard? I cant keep them straight!



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Would you care to share how you know the investigation is still ongoing? I have no knowledge of whether the investigation has been completed or not. But I do know that they were investigated. I did not misspeak. Perhaps they are also still being investigated, but at this point (as it has been years now) the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you wish to make it.

The difference between my viewpoint and yours is that regardless of the outcome, I don't look like the asshole. I am agnostic. I haven't cast judgment either way. If they committed the crimes, then I can simply cast judgment after they have been found guilty in a court of law. That doesn't make me an asshole because I waited for the FBI to do their job. However, if it turns out that they are innocent, and they never get charged with any crimes then you guys turn out to be not just assholes, but assholes of the highest order. And if that happens, you won't see me saying, "see, I told you they were innocent!" because I never made that claim. Everyone seems to always want to jump to a conclusion, whatever the subject. Why can't more people just be ok with not knowing something? I don't know if they are guilty or innocent, and I'm fine with not knowing. You guys don't know if they are guilty or innocent either, yet for reasons I can't understand, you all seem to want to pretend like you know.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The difference between my viewpoint and yours is that regardless of the outcome, I don't look like the asshole.

Just Asking Questions?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Two things have me concerned about doing business with them in the future:

1) They would auction the same cards on ebay over and over and over again. Someone would "win" the auction and the card would immediately go up for auction again. Coincidentally, they then got kicked off of ebay amidst accusations of shill bidding. I don't need the FBI to tell me that something was amiss.

2) Their new website sucks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would you care to share how you know the investigation is still ongoing? I have no knowledge of whether the investigation has been completed or not. But I do know that they were investigated. I did not misspeak. Perhaps they are also still being investigated, but at this point (as it has been years now) the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you wish to make it.

The difference between my viewpoint and yours is that regardless of the outcome, I don't look like the asshole. I am agnostic. I haven't cast judgment either way. If they committed the crimes, then I can simply cast judgment after they have been found guilty in a court of law. That doesn't make me an asshole because I waited for the FBI to do their job. However, if it turns out that they are innocent, and they never get charged with any crimes then you guys turn out to be not just assholes, but assholes of the highest order. And if that happens, you won't see me saying, "see, I told you they were innocent!" because I never made that claim. Everyone seems to always want to jump to a conclusion, whatever the subject. Why can't more people just be ok with not knowing something? I don't know if they are guilty or innocent, and I'm fine with not knowing. You guys don't know if they are guilty or innocent either, yet for reasons I can't understand, you all seem to want to pretend like you know.

I don't know what the outcome will be, there are a host of considerations that go into decisions whether to seek to indict, but I certainly know what he told me personally. And I know the law. I am not pretending anything.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why can't more people just be ok with not knowing something?

I'm speechless.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I'm speechless.

There is an ignore option so you only see someones post when someone quotes them.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would you care to share how you know the investigation is still ongoing? I have no knowledge of whether the investigation has been completed or not. But I do know that they were investigated. I did not misspeak. Perhaps they are also still being investigated, but at this point (as it has been years now) the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you wish to make it.

The difference between my viewpoint and yours is that regardless of the outcome, I don't look like the asshole. I am agnostic. I haven't cast judgment either way. If they committed the crimes, then I can simply cast judgment after they have been found guilty in a court of law. That doesn't make me an asshole because I waited for the FBI to do their job. However, if it turns out that they are innocent, and they never get charged with any crimes then you guys turn out to be not just assholes, but assholes of the highest order. And if that happens, you won't see me saying, "see, I told you they were innocent!" because I never made that claim. Everyone seems to always want to jump to a conclusion, whatever the subject. Why can't more people just be ok with not knowing something? I don't know if they are guilty or innocent, and I'm fine with not knowing. You guys don't know if they are guilty or innocent either, yet for reasons I can't understand, you all seem to want to pretend like you know.

Did you even look at the dozens of threads showing concrete proof of alteration? Thousands of cut and dried "before and after" examples for you to peruse through. All miraculously from the same submitter over a multiple-year span...

Whether or not the FBI finally comes around, someone with your self-proclaimed expertise should easily be able to determine for yourself, their obvious level of corruption and complicity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Did you even look at the dozens of threads showing concrete proof of alteration? Thousands of cut and dried "before and after" examples for you to peruse through. All miraculously from the same submitter over a multiple-year span...

Whether or not the FBI finally comes around, someone with your self-proclaimed expertise should easily be able to determine for yourself, their obvious level of corruption and complicity.

The before and after photos themselves could have been altered, don't you know.
And if PSA graded the cards, how can you possibly blame Brent?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Did you even look at the dozens of threads showing concrete proof of alteration? Thousands of cut and dried "before and after" examples for you to peruse through. All miraculously from the same submitter over a multiple-year span...

Yes, I read those. Nearly all, if not all of those posts. The majority of the cards posted certainly were trimmed or altered in some way, I agree. What I'm waiting on is the evidence that PWCC themselves did this.

Originally Posted by perezfan

Whether or not the FBI finally comes around, someone with your self-proclaimed expertise should easily be able to determine for yourself, their obvious level of corruption and complicity.

Show me one post where I proclaimed expertise in this area. Just one. I'll give you $10k if you can find just one.

[Bigdaddy]

I too don't know what the outcome of any FBI or other law enforcement investigation will be, but I have to make a personal decision whether to spend my money with PWCC or not.

And at this point, I have all the evidence I need to make that decision. And so has everyone else. If you continue to deal with them, then you have concluded that they are worthy of your business. And if you don't, then you've come to the other conclusion. For me, I see no reason to do business with them.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would you care to share how you know the investigation is still ongoing? I have no knowledge of whether the investigation has been completed or not. But I do know that they were investigated. I did not misspeak. Perhaps they are also still being investigated, but at this point (as it has been years now) the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you wish to make it.

Hate to tell you Snowman, but Ted/Republicaninmass has a very good point in regards to your earlier response where you stated, "I've read enough to know that their actions have been THOUROUGHLY investigated by the FBI for the laundry list of accusations made on the Blowhard forums." I know you are very intelligent and quite articulate so, when using the word "thouroughly", you are stating that the FBI has in fact completely investigated every detail in regards to these accusations, which most normal, intelligent people would take to mean that the FBI has nothing more to look at and investigate in this regard (ie: They ARE done investigating). But then in a later thread you stated you never said they completed the investigation, and that you didn't know if they were done with it or not. So you've made completely conflicting statements within a couple of posts of each other. I can fully and easily see how people are being confused by some of what you're saying, and therefore questioning it. So be kind when telling others to go back because they didn't properly read what you wrote, it can also apply to yourself as well.

Another point in regards to your statements and ongoing debate with several others on here regarding the treatment and opinions towards PWCC, I saw you state that though late to the party, you feel you've pretty much seen and read all the applicable posts out there, and how you feel up to date on what has transpired so far in regards to PWCC and all the accusations. You have mentioned that there is really no definitive proof of any wrong doing on PWCC's part that has actually been presented to the hobby community as a whole yet, and therefore are withholding any final determination as to their guilt or innocence, which I can fully understand and agree with under those circumstances.

Now, it hasn't been spefically brought up in this thread, but it has previously been brought up by others on this forum that they had in the past communicated directly with Brent at PWCC about a lot of past activity and consignments he allegedly accepted and sold on behalf of at least one particularly well known card doctor. And if my memory serves me correctly, when the issues and examples of all the card doctoring taking place in the hobby started being exposed on Blowout, that was when Brent started getting questioned and allegedly admitted to having taken consignments and worked with this known card doctor in the past, but supposedly was telling those then questioning him that he was no longer doing business with that person anymore. Now I don't remember the exact details, but it was then reported on this forum that it was somehow found out or determined that Brent/PWCC was in fact still working with this known card doctor after all, despite his statements that he wasn't anymore. Do you remember coming across and reading that info on this forum as well, and if so, would that in your thinking be positive evidence that Brent/PWCC was knowledgeable after all in regards to the acceptance and continued selling of items from a known card doctor? I guess the question would be, why would someone tell people they no longer took consignments from a known card doctor if in fact they still were?

I would think that as the Blowout guys kept exposing altered cards being sold that it would be pretty easy for who ever was selling them to have their people look up who the consignor(s) was/were. And once discovering such info, do you think they should maybe confront them about it and stop doing business with repeat consignors of such exposed, altered cards? I'm pretty confident people were and still are trying to contact and make whoever is/was selling such doctored cards aware of that fact, based on numerous posts and comments of people on this and other forums. So I doubt any such major sellers can plead total ignorance to this issue. And I can also understand your stance that maybe these sellers aren't directly involved in actually altering any cards, or in the improper grading of such cards by TPGs totally missing/ignoring the alterations. But does that then excuse all these sellers in your mind from not being complicit to some extent? It is kind of hard (really pretty much impossible) for any major seller to not be aware of what is going on in the hobby in regards to alterations. So if they aren't somehow complicit, why aren't they all being totally transparent with everyone as to what they are doing to stop dealing with altered cards?

Or maybe it is already too late and hobby purists, like many are here on Net54, are the old and fading part of the hobby who's thinking and actions are slowly being transformed by the incoming younger generations, investors, registry addicts, people who do not mind card restoration, and so on. In that case we may be nothing more than a dwindling minority and no action will ever come from our objections as the rest of the hobby community accepts things we do not want to. And if that turns out to be the case, maybe card doctors and alterations become the norm and an accepted part of the hobby, even if a TPG grades it without recognizing any such alterations. With no single, uniform, recognized standards in the hobby, it is going to be difficult for anyone to be found guilty of anything for relying upon someone else's opinion. And this may be another reason why AHs and sellers aren't saying/doing much about alterations and card doctors, as they see the changes and acceptance coming more and more in the future. And they realize that there is already so much altered and doctored material out there in graded slabs that it is impossible to ever go back and correct it all, so they don't. They just sit tight and be quiet as more and more old time purist collectors go away over time. Who really knows anymore.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah Bob I posted everything I knew about this when the scandal first broke and Gary's name came to light, including emails I've seen and personal conversations. I don't feel like doing it again every time some skeptic pops up. I also explained why knowingly selling altered cards without disclosure, even if someone else altered them, could be mail/wire fraud.


One other point -- if the feds decide not to prosecute you, it doesn't mean they think you're innocent, necessarily. Sometimes the rules of evidence make it difficult to prove something in court even though it's clearly true, and that can factor into the decision. Prosecutors don't like to bring cases they don't view as highly likely to succeed.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hate to tell you Snowman, but Ted/Republicaninmass has a very good point in regards to your earlier response where you stated, "I've read enough to know that their actions have been THOUROUGHLY investigated by the FBI for the laundry list of accusations made on the Blowhard forums." I know you are very intelligent and quite articulate so, when using the word "thouroughly", you are stating that the FBI has in fact completely investigated every detail in regards to these accusations, which most normal, intelligent people would take to mean that the FBI has nothing more to look at and investigate in this regard (ie: They ARE done investigating). But then in a later thread you stated you never said they completed the investigation, and that you didn't know if they were done with it or not. So you've made completely conflicting statements within a couple of posts of each other. I can fully and easily see how people are being confused by some of what you're saying, and therefore questioning it. So be kind when telling others to go back because they didn't properly read what you wrote, it can also apply to yourself as well.

Another point in regards to your statements and ongoing debate with several others on here regarding the treatment and opinions towards PWCC, I saw you state that though late to the party, you feel you've pretty much seen and read all the applicable posts out there, and how you feel up to date on what has transpired so far in regards to PWCC and all the accusations. You have mentioned that there is really no definitive proof of any wrong doing on PWCC's part that has actually been presented to the hobby community as a whole yet, and therefore are withholding any final determination as to their guilt or innocence, which I can fully understand and agree with under those circumstances.

Now, it hasn't been spefically brought up in this thread, but it has previously been brought up by others on this forum that they had in the past communicated directly with Brent at PWCC about a lot of past activity and consignments he allegedly accepted and sold on behalf of at least one particularly well known card doctor. And if my memory serves me correctly, when the issues and examples of all the card doctoring taking place in the hobby started being exposed on Blowout, that was when Brent started getting questioned and allegedly admitted to having taken consignments and worked with this known card doctor in the past, but supposedly was telling those then questioning him that he was no longer doing business with that person anymore. Now I don't remember the exact details, but it was then reported on this forum that it was somehow found out or determined that Brent/PWCC was in fact still working with this known card doctor after all, despite his statements that he wasn't anymore. Do you remember coming across and reading that info on this forum as well, and if so, would that in your thinking be positive evidence that Brent/PWCC was knowledgeable after all in regards to the acceptance and continued selling of items from a known card doctor? I guess the question would be, why would someone tell people they no longer took consignments from a known card doctor if in fact they still were?

I would think that as the Blowout guys kept exposing altered cards being sold that it would be pretty easy for whover was selling them to have their people look up who the consigner(s) was/were. And once discovering such info, do you think they should maybe confront them about it and stop doing business with repeat consigners of such exposed, altered cards? I'm pretty confident people were and still are trying to contact and make whoever is/was selling such doctored cards aware of that fact, based on numerous posts and comments of people on this and other forums. So I doubt any such major sellers can plead total ignorance to this issue. And I can also understand your stance that maybe these sellers aren't directly involved in actually altering any cards, or in the improper grading of such cards by TPGs totally missing/ignoring the alterations. But does that then excuse all these sellers in your mind from not being complicit to some extent? It is kind of hard (really pretty much impossible) for any major seller to not be aware of what is going on in the hobby in regards to alterations. So if they aren't somehow complicit, why aren't they all being totally transparent with everyone as to what they are doing to stop dealing with altered cards?

Or maybe it is already too late and hobby purists, like many are here on Net54, are the old and fading part of the hobby who's thinking and actions are slowly being transformed by the incoming younger generations, investors, registry addicts, people who do not mind card restoration, and so on. In that case we may be nothing more than a dwindling minority and no action will ever come from our objections as the rest of the hobby community accepts things we do not want to. And if that turns out to be the case, maybe card doctors and alterations become the norm and an accepted part of the hobby, even if a TPG grades it without recognizing any such alterations. With no single, uniform, recognized standards in the hobby, it is going to be difficult for anyone to be found guilty of anything for relying upon someone else's opinion. And this may be another reason why AHs and sellers aren't saying/doing much about alterations and card doctors, as they see the changes and acceptance coming more and more in the future. And they realize that there is already so much altered and doctored material out there in graded slabs that it is impossible to ever go back and correct it all, so they don't. They just sit tight and be quiet as more and more old time purist collectors go away over time. Who really knows anymore.

Agreed...Breaker, breaker Snowman good buddy. You are an apologist for one of the biggest and well known BANDIT's in the industry. Love, Smokey (as in you blow Smokey Up Brent Mastro's ass)

https://youtu.be/nKo2Bz8izXY?t=13

VROOOOOOOM Snowman: I'll blow some Benzene out of my ass for you you today, good buddy...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I've read enough to know that their actions have been thoroughly investigated by the FBI for the laundry list of accusations made on the Blowhard forums. If any of the more serious accusations hold any water whatsoever, then they will be prosecuted. I trust the criminal justice system, for the most part, at least in cases like this. If there is significant wrongdoing by PWCC, we will find out. At that point, I will decide whether or not to continue doing business with them based on those findings. Until then, I will continue to reserve judgment.

Any day now... any day now...

From your perspective, not (I don't think) having been deeply involved with all this for a long time, I understand that approach. From mine, to paraphrase Dylan, I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From your perspective, not (I don't think) having been deeply involved with all this for a long time, I understand that approach. From mine, to paraphrase Dylan, I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

I wasn't aware of the accusations until some point in 2019 when I started posting on Blowout. So I was late to the game. However, I did read every thread I could find on the topic (which turned out to be thousands of pages worth of posts). I also did a fair amount of digging on my own, and even wrote webscraping scripts to investigate PWCC's user base (somewhere on my computer I have a database with every feedback entry they ever received on eBay). While I agree that there are some concerns worth looking into, I haven't found any of them to be unexplainable. And I encountered mountains of conjecture and faulty reasoning along the way. If it turns out that they were committing these crimes, then I will gladly board the train at that time and throw shit on them as well. But I just can't do it at this point. I want to see the process play out first. The worst I can say is that I was late to the party, but I'd rather be late than wrongfully accuse.

Now the Joe Clemons guy and his BGS black labels... Ya, that's messed up. There is no scenario whatsoever where he wasn't given preferential treatment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I wasn't aware of the accusations until some point in 2019 when I started posting on Blowout. So I was late to the game. However, I did read every thread I could find on the topic (which turned out to be thousands of pages worth of posts). I also did a fair amount of digging on my own, and even wrote webscraping scripts to investigate PWCC's user base (somewhere on my computer I have a database with every feedback entry they ever received on eBay). While I agree that there are some concerns worth looking into, I haven't found any of them to be unexplainable. And I encountered mountains of conjecture and faulty reasoning along the way. If it turns out that they were committing these crimes, then I will gladly board the train at that time and throw shit on them as well. But I just can't do it at this point. I want to see the process play out first. The worst I can say is that I was late to the party, but I'd rather be late than wrongfully accuse.

Now the Joe Clemons guy and his BGS black labels... Ya, that's messed up. There is no scenario whatsoever where he wasn't given preferential treatment.

Yeah, as I recall from the guys who were good at that sort of math, the odds were beyond staggering that all his black labels were just the result of his "eagle eye" and not favoritism.