Small Traditions LLC/SCANDAL UPDATE

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I agree with you here. It is certainly frustrating that the consignment companies have almost no control over who bids on their listings (other than adding someone to their blocked bidders list, which as has been pointed above caps out at 5,000 users and is insufficient for resolving this issue).



I have to disagree with you here. Your statement assumes that everyone is searching eBay the same way - i.e., they're all typing in '1955 Topps Roberto Clemente' into the search bar and when one shows up that they like, they just bid on it, and that furthermore, they are every bit as willing to bid the same amount regardless of who the seller is. But in practice, this is not how it works. People use eBay in very different ways.

First, there's the issue of buyer's confidence. Having nice clear images that you can zoom in on will always outsell another listing of the same card with blurry pics. Buying from a seller with supernova feedback of 100,000+ ratings will always outsell 'jimbob007' with his (18) feedback score. Obviously there's no shortage of other reputable sellers on eBay, but if you compare a company who does all of those little things right against the overall market, they're going to outsell the competition for those reasons alone. But the biggest factor in how much an item sells for is hands down the number of eyes a seller can get on that auction. And this is where sellers like PWCC and Probstein far outweigh the competition. Just click on the user name of a given seller and you can see how many followers they have. I build predictive models for a living, and I can guarantee you if I were to build a model to predict card prices on eBay, that not only would this factor correlate to auction prices realized, it would probably be the #1 most relevant factor in the model outside of the card itself and the slab it's in. Here's a quick comparison of a few consigment companies:

PWCC (312295) - 43,944 followers still today, despite no longer selling on eBay
Probstein123 (893960) - 57,861 followers
quickconsignment_802 (37054) - 2,682 followers
gregmorriscards (312064) - 13,665 followers
4sharpcorners (312086) - 9,321 followers
sportscardauctionscom (91092) - 4,046 followers
bigboydsportscards (345236) - 12,816 followers
pcsportscards (45465) - 6,371 followers

Note that PWCC, 4sharpcorners, and gregmorriscards all have ~312,000 feedback (a fun coincidence) yet PWCC has more than 3x the number of followers as GM and 4x that of 4SC! And they certainly had even more than that before being banned from eBay. Marketing matters, and PWCC has learned this far better than their competition. Many other consignment companies have not. People in social media even do live PWCC auction watch parties. I just received a PWCC auction catalog in the mail this weekend. I get notifications from Probstein and PWCC on social media all the time, showing me cards that are up for auction that I never even would have thought to look for. I get email blasts from them as well. And PWCC organized thier listings intelligently. All 1950s baseball ending together around the same time, all 1990s basketball cards together, etc. People would log in and just sort PWCC listings by themselves and see what else was up for sale. This doesn't happen with other random sellers. And most sellers have next to zero followers, or just a few dozen. The only way their cards get seen is if someone specifically searches for that card and finds their listing.

Followers matter. Setting up your auctions in an organized manner matters as well. It's all about getting the most eyes on that listing. Say what you want about PWCC, but they were masters of this aspect of selling. Everyone else should be taking notes.

All due respect but you're talking about pre-war collectors who have been on eBay for 20 years. They are not strangers to the search and they've been around since the days when you misspelled words on purpose hoping a seller did too.

Modern collectors are a different story and maybe there is something to Twitter and marketing when it comes to their tastes.

But this is the pre-war board and the issues raised have been centered on pre-war cards.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by packs

All due respect but you're talking about pre-war collectors who have been on eBay for 20 years. They are not strangers to the search and they've been around since the days when you misspelled words on purpose hoping a seller did too.

Modern collectors are a different story and maybe there is something to Twitter and marketing when it comes to their tastes.

But this is the pre-war board and the issues raised have been centered on pre-war cards.

I was talking about why PWCC listings sold for more than their competition on average. My comment didn't have anything to do with members of any specific forums. And I'm not sure how that would be relevant.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I was talking about why PWCC listings sold for more than their competition on average. My comment didn't have anything to do with members of any specific forums. And I'm not sure how that would be relevant.

It's relevant because you keep talking about followers, like Twitter or Instagram means anything to a pre-war focused audience (which, by the way, is what this page is dedicated to). These are not explanations for why one card sells for multiples of another by virtue of who's selling it. There are much more plausible explanations, none of which you will accept. This phenomenon is not new nor is it the product of some new marketing blitz or the pandemic. The same two sellers have had thread after thread posted about them for years, all which share a common theme: why did this card sell for this much? These questions date back to a time before your Twitter follower explanation. So it cannot be that and it must be something else.

The earliest threads relating to the same tired topic on this board date to 2013. I'd love to see a screenshot of the Twitter numbers then.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I was talking about why PWCC listings sold for more than their competition on average. My comment didn't have anything to do with members of any specific forums. And I'm not sure how that would be relevant.

Maybe because you are posting all this on what is specifically a, wait a second......pre-war card forum?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by packs

It's relevant because you keep talking about followers, like Twitter or Instagram means anything to a pre-war focused audience (which, by the way, is what this page is dedicated to). These are not explanations for why one card sells for multiples of another by virtue of who's selling it. There are much more plausible explanations, none of which you will accept. This phenomenon is not new nor is it the product of some new marketing blitz or the pandemic. The same two sellers have had thread after thread posted about them for years, all which share a common theme: why did this card sell for this much? These questions date back to a time before your Twitter follower explanation. So it cannot be that and it must be something else.

The earliest threads relating to the same tired topic on this board date to 2013. I'd love to see a screenshot of the Twitter numbers then.

I was not talking about Twitter. I am talking about the number of followers that these sellers have on eBay (see screenshot below) and how that has a positive effect on the hammer prices of their auctions. Whether or not members of this board are interested in Twitter or Instagram has absolutely nothing at all to do with the fact that the more eBay followers a seller has, the more views their listings will receive. Perhaps you were unaware that you can "follow" a seller on eBay? I don't know, but I assure you, this is a thing, and it's far more important than you apparently realize. This isn't rocket science. The more views a listing gets, the more money it will sell for. It's pretty simple. If you disagree with that fact, then I don't know what else to tell you. And if this point hasn't been made before in prior discussions about why PWCC listings sell for more than their competition, then those discussions were lacking one of the most important factors in that conversation, if not THE most important factor.

Originally Posted by BobC

Maybe because you are posting all this on what is specifically a, wait a second......pre-war card forum?

This is still completely irrelevant to the question of "why do PWCC listings sell for more than their competition?" This is the question I am addressing. I don't understand why anyone would think the fact that we are debating this question on a pre-war card forum has anything at all to do with what I'm saying. And even if I were talking about Twitter followers, as opposed to eBay followers, it still wouldn't negate the fact that having more eyes on your listings equates to higher prices. Whether those eyes come from members of this forum or from Twitter followers or Instagram followers or anywhere else.

I can't believe we're arguing about this. More eyes on your listings equate to higher auction prices. Please tell me you agree with this simple fact.

[packs]

Your explanation holds water only in a world where the sale prices have grown over time. The same questions have been asked for at least 8 years. All you have to do is search the acronym and hit Last. The number of followers have not created the marketplace. The marketplace created itself out of thin air, which has always been the impression the board has had, even as far back as 2013.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by packs

Your explanation holds water only in a world where the sale prices have grown over time. The same questions have been asked for at least 8 years. All you have to do is search the acronym and hit Last. The number of followers have not created the marketplace. The marketplace created itself out of thin air, which has always been the impression the board has had, even as far back as 2013.

I don't understand what you're saying when you write "The number of followers have not created the marketplace." Who said anything about creating a marketplace? We're talking about why PWCC cards sold for more than their competition.

If you're talking about overall market prices increasing across the hobby over the past 8 years, then that's an entirely different topic. But the answer to that question is surely not that it "created itself out of thin air". New buyers and new money entered the hobby. It's pretty simple. It isn't some artificial price inflation that came from thin air. It was also predictable.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't understand what you're saying when you write "The number of followers have not created the marketplace." Who said anything about creating a marketplace? We're talking about why PWCC cards sold for more than their competition.

If you're talking about overall market prices increasing across the hobby over the past 8 years, then that's an entirely different topic. But the answer to that question is surely not that it "created itself out of thin air". New buyers and new money entered the hobby. It's pretty simple. It isn't some artificial price inflation that came from thin air. It was also predictable.

No, I'm still talking about prices increasing for a select few sellers in an otherwise common world. When I say that followers didn't create the marketplace, it's in response to you saying a seller is able to make more money selling the same cards because of their followers. But for that to be true, there would have had to have been a time when they weren't.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I was not talking about Twitter. I am talking about the number of followers that these sellers have on eBay (see screenshot below) and how that has a positive effect on the hammer prices of their auctions. Whether or not members of this board are interested in Twitter or Instagram has absolutely nothing at all to do with the fact that the more eBay followers a seller has, the more views their listings will receive. Perhaps you were unaware that you can "follow" a seller on eBay? I don't know, but I assure you, this is a thing, and it's far more important than you apparently realize. This isn't rocket science. The more views a listing gets, the more money it will sell for. It's pretty simple. If you disagree with that fact, then I don't know what else to tell you. And if this point hasn't been made before in prior discussions about why PWCC listings sell for more than their competition, then those discussions were lacking one of the most important factors in that conversation, if not THE most important factor.



This is still completely irrelevant to the question of "why do PWCC listings sell for more than their competition?" This is the question I am addressing. I don't understand why anyone would think the fact that we are debating this question on a pre-war card forum has anything at all to do with what I'm saying. And even if I were talking about Twitter followers, as opposed to eBay followers, it still wouldn't negate the fact that having more eyes on your listings equates to higher prices. Whether those eyes come from members of this forum or from Twitter followers or Instagram followers or anywhere else.

I can't believe we're arguing about this. More eyes on your listings equate to higher auction prices. Please tell me you agree with this simple fact.

I'm not arguing that point all. You came on here and are directing your commentary to mostly pre-war collectors on a pre-war card forum, and that audience is typically older collectors who don't really care all the much about social media and this other garbage you keep spewing out as a contrarian and opposite of everything else that anybody seems to say or think. It's like you take no position or truly give any positive information about anything, just start posting everywhere in your contrarian manner. And it seems like all you ever post are things to go against what someone was saying, yet when they call you out or try to provide evidence to the contrary, you almost always come back saying you didn't say this or that, or that you actually don't believe what most normal people feel you are touting in all your posts. I grant you this, you are very good at the way you word what you say so that after the fact you can deny things that people initially are taking from your posts. Apparently others are aware of you and your antics as well. Thought I saw somewhere about you having a meltdown and getting kicked off BODA, or something like that. And if I'm mistaking you for someone else, I apologize in advance. But if I'm not mistaken, I guess the question is, do you do what you do intentionally to irk as many people as you possibly can, or do you truly not have a clue?

And by the way, what are you exactly, a data scientist and/or some kind of programmer, right? So exactly how does that make you an expert on the effects of social media and attracting customers and the business and other aspects of having followers equate to higher sales? Have you ever actually run a business or done marketing or the like? Your statements that PWCC always seems to get higher prices is because they have more followers can't be proven, any more or less than you can actually prove (or disprove) the reason they get higher prices is due to shill bidding. For all anyone knows, it could be (and very possibly is) a mix or combination of factors and not just the one main factor you are pushing, but you certainly don't know yourself more than anyone else. The more you go on and on, the more you start sounding like that other recent poster, Directly, who's main argument over and over again was that he was right and everyone else was always wrong. You're just able to use prettier words than he is.

And by the way, your own argument about more eyes equating to higher prices has a big glitch in it. Per your own post, you showed that Probstein actually had significantly more positive feedback and followers than PWCC, yet all everyone seems to talk about (on here at least) is how PWCC always seems to get the highest prices. So please explain this for everyone how Probstein isn't getting higher prices than PWCC then.

There are a lot of factors influencing all that is happening and still evolving around us in regards to things like this, and will we ever finally get all the answers, who knows? As I've often said, only time will tell!

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by BobC

I'm not arguing that point all. You came on here and are directing your commentary to mostly pre-war collectors on a pre-war card forum, and that audience is typically older collectors who don't really care all the much about social media and this other garbage you keep spewing out as a contrarian and opposite of everything else that anybody seems to say or think.

I told myself this thread had gotten to the teaching a pig to sing mile marker and was done with it. So, it pains me to do this, but he is not making a point about social media. His claim is that there is a correlation between higher card prices realized and higher eBay follower counts. In other words, the more followers an eBay auction house has, the higher prices they will achieve, all other things remaining the same.

That is his claim, anyways, as he hasn't actually presented any proof that would substantiate it. Nor has he addressed what they teach you on the first day of Data Analysis 101: correlation is not necessarily causation.

And by the way, what are you exactly, a data scientist and/or some kind of programmer, right? So exactly how does that make you an expert on the effects of social media and attracting customers and the business and other aspects of having followers equate to higher sales? Have you ever actually run a business or done marketing or the like?

I spent the first two decades of my professional career in electronics manufacturing and the most recent decade in oil and gas. Both are industries dominated by engineers. Indeed, my background is engineering. It is my observation that folks with technological backgrounds often assume that, because they have mastered one (or several) difficult subject matters, that they can reason their way to correct answers beyond those areas. So, go easy on him because he is a victim of his programming.

On a lighter note, I thought I'd share with Snowman how us grayheads used to bid on card auctions outside our hometown back in the day,

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's interesting that when Snow has a point to make, it's OK to use a very simple correlation -- more eyes equals higher prices. But when someone else has a point, such as that examination of a reasonable sampling of high dollar auctions could be indicative of hanky panky, HIS anaylsis is way too simplistic to prove anything and is meaningless buffoonery absent a full deep data dive. Hmmmm.

Let me guess, Snow will say apples to oranges.

Or maybe he'll say that since he alone understands data, he alone can determine how much is needed for any given question.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I told myself this thread had gotten to the teaching a pig to sing mile marker and was done with it. So, it pains me to do this, but he is not making a point about social media. His claim is that there is a correlation between higher card prices realized and higher eBay follower counts. In other words, the more followers an eBay auction house has, the higher prices they will achieve, all other things remaining the same.

That is his claim, anyways, as he hasn't actually presented any proof that would substantiate it. Nor has he addressed what they teach you on the first day of Data Analysis 101: correlation is not necessarily causation.



I spent the first two decades of my professional career in electronics manufacturing and the most recent decade in oil and gas. Both are industries dominated by engineers. Indeed, my background is engineering. It is my observation that folks with technological backgrounds often assume that, because they have mastered one (or several) difficult subject matters, that they can reason their way to correct answers beyond those areas. So, go easy on him because he is a victim of his programming.

On a lighter note, I thought I'd share with Snowman how us grayheads used to bid on card auctions outside our hometown back in the day,

I know what you are saying and understand exactly what he does. I did point out his own posted figures and asked why his own evidence doesn't support his statement that PWCC has the highest prices because Probstein actually has more followers. And there is no reason to go easy on him as he is obviously knowledgable, just doesn' t really say anything that basically ends up as anything other than he's right and you're wrong. Same thing you're pointing out. And just because he's an engineer he gets no pass from me. I've worked with many engineers and architects in the past, and engineers are typically very knowledgable and pay attention to details and facts. And my daughter is an engineer as well. Feel I'd be letting them all down if I didn't call him out.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I told myself this thread had gotten to the teaching a pig to sing mile marker and was done with it. So, it pains me to do this, but he is not making a point about social media. His claim is that there is a correlation between higher card prices realized and higher eBay follower counts. In other words, the more followers an eBay auction house has, the higher prices they will achieve, all other things remaining the same.

That is his claim, anyways, as he hasn't actually presented any proof that would substantiate it. Nor has he addressed what they teach you on the first day of Data Analysis 101: correlation is not necessarily causation.



I spent the first two decades of my professional career in electronics manufacturing and the most recent decade in oil and gas. Both are industries dominated by engineers. Indeed, my background is engineering. It is my observation that folks with technological backgrounds often assume that, because they have mastered one (or several) difficult subject matters, that they can reason their way to correct answers beyond those areas. So, go easy on him because he is a victim of his programming.

On a lighter note, I thought I'd share with Snowman how us grayheads used to bid on card auctions outside our hometown back in the day,

Learned specialists are aware how ignorant they are in areas outside of their expertise and tread lightly.