Small Traditions LLC/SCANDAL UPDATE

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by packs

Nobody really wants to know how eBay runs it's business. The issue the board has with certain sellers is that THEY have no control over their own auctions re: shill bidding. Or at least that is the claim we're supposed to believe.

I agree with you here. It is certainly frustrating that the consignment companies have almost no control over who bids on their listings (other than adding someone to their blocked bidders list, which as has been pointed above caps out at 5,000 users and is insufficient for resolving this issue).

Originally Posted by packs

But it becomes obvious that if one seller is selling their cards for more than any other seller gets on the same platform using the same search terminology, it is because something is different about how that seller is running their auctions, not because that seller has the right audience. All the sales take place in front of the same audience.

I have to disagree with you here. Your statement assumes that everyone is searching eBay the same way - i.e., they're all typing in '1955 Topps Roberto Clemente' into the search bar and when one shows up that they like, they just bid on it, and that furthermore, they are every bit as willing to bid the same amount regardless of who the seller is. But in practice, this is not how it works. People use eBay in very different ways.

First, there's the issue of buyer's confidence. Having nice clear images that you can zoom in on will always outsell another listing of the same card with blurry pics. Buying from a seller with supernova feedback of 100,000+ ratings will always outsell 'jimbob007' with his (18) feedback score. Obviously there's no shortage of other reputable sellers on eBay, but if you compare a company who does all of those little things right against the overall market, they're going to outsell the competition for those reasons alone. But the biggest factor in how much an item sells for is hands down the number of eyes a seller can get on that auction. And this is where sellers like PWCC and Probstein far outweigh the competition. Just click on the user name of a given seller and you can see how many followers they have. I build predictive models for a living, and I can guarantee you if I were to build a model to predict card prices on eBay, that not only would this factor correlate to auction prices realized, it would probably be the #1 most relevant factor in the model outside of the card itself and the slab it's in. Here's a quick comparison of a few consigment companies:

PWCC (312295) - 43,944 followers still today, despite no longer selling on eBay
Probstein123 (893960) - 57,861 followers
quickconsignment_802 (37054) - 2,682 followers
gregmorriscards (312064) - 13,665 followers
4sharpcorners (312086) - 9,321 followers
sportscardauctionscom (91092) - 4,046 followers
bigboydsportscards (345236) - 12,816 followers
pcsportscards (45465) - 6,371 followers

Note that PWCC, 4sharpcorners, and gregmorriscards all have ~312,000 feedback (a fun coincidence) yet PWCC has more than 3x the number of followers as GM and 4x that of 4SC! And they certainly had even more than that before being banned from eBay. Marketing matters, and PWCC has learned this far better than their competition. Many other consignment companies have not. People in social media even do live PWCC auction watch parties. I just received a PWCC auction catalog in the mail this weekend. I get notifications from Probstein and PWCC on social media all the time, showing me cards that are up for auction that I never even would have thought to look for. I get email blasts from them as well. And PWCC organized thier listings intelligently. All 1950s baseball ending together around the same time, all 1990s basketball cards together, etc. People would log in and just sort PWCC listings by themselves and see what else was up for sale. This doesn't happen with other random sellers. And most sellers have next to zero followers, or just a few dozen. The only way their cards get seen is if someone specifically searches for that card and finds their listing.

Followers matter. Setting up your auctions in an organized manner matters as well. It's all about getting the most eyes on that listing. Say what you want about PWCC, but they were masters of this aspect of selling. Everyone else should be taking notes.

[frankbmd]

Tweet, tweet

I signed up for Twitter, before I realized I would never use it. I have followed no one. I doubt that anyone is following me, nor should they.

I don't think I have missed much.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Tweet, tweet

I signed up for Twitter, before I realized I would never use it. I have followed no one. I doubt that anyone is following me, nor should they.

I don't think I have missed much.

I only do anti-social media.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Tweet, tweet

I signed up for Twitter, before I realized I would never use it. I have followed no one. I doubt that anyone is following me, nor should they.

I don't think I have missed much.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I only do anti-social media.

I definitely understand the sentiment and avoid social media as well for the most part. I never use Twitter or Facebook. But I definitely think there is a disconnect on these forums that correspond to the age gap between the user base here and that of the broader market as a whole. Box "breakers" on Instagram and YouTube is all the rage these days with the younger generations. I've bought and sold some relatively expensive cards recently just from random people I met on Instagram (some random guy just wired me $20k last week for a modern basketball card). It's a different world out there. Most of the growth of this hobby in recent years is from people in their teens, 20s, 30s, and 40s. They experience the hobby in remarkably different ways than most who are in their 50s and above. The consignment companies who recognize this and find creative ways to market to them are the ones who are going to benefit the most. You'd be amazed how many people under the age of 25 that have 6 and even 7 figure collections and who are out there bidding on $20k+ cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Absolutely there is a new generation of collectors/investors/flippers out there. Iphones and tshirts and sneakers and social media and influencers and apps and PSA 10s. And some hobby businesses have definitely done well to adapt to and cater to them.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I have to disagree with you here. Your statement assumes that everyone is searching eBay the same way - i.e., they're all typing in '1955 Topps Roberto Clemente' into the search bar and when one shows up that they like, they just bid on it, and that furthermore, they are every bit as willing to bid the same amount regardless of who the seller is. But in practice, this is not how it works. People use eBay in very different ways.

First, there's the issue of buyer's confidence. Having nice clear images that you can zoom in on will always outsell another listing of the same card with blurry pics. Buying from a seller with supernova feedback of 100,000+ ratings will always outsell 'jimbob007' with his (18) feedback score. Obviously there's no shortage of other reputable sellers on eBay, but if you compare a company who does all of those little things right against the overall market, they're going to outsell the competition for those reasons alone. But the biggest factor in how much an item sells for is hands down the number of eyes a seller can get on that auction. And this is where sellers like PWCC and Probstein far outweigh the competition. Just click on the user name of a given seller and you can see how many followers they have. I build predictive models for a living, and I can guarantee you if I were to build a model to predict card prices on eBay, that not only would this factor correlate to auction prices realized, it would probably be the #1 most relevant factor in the model outside of the card itself and the slab it's in. Here's a quick comparison of a few consigment companies:

PWCC (312295) - 43,944 followers still today, despite no longer selling on eBay
Probstein123 (893960) - 57,861 followers
quickconsignment_802 (37054) - 2,682 followers
gregmorriscards (312064) - 13,665 followers
4sharpcorners (312086) - 9,321 followers
sportscardauctionscom (91092) - 4,046 followers
bigboydsportscards (345236) - 12,816 followers
pcsportscards (45465) - 6,371 followers

Note that PWCC, 4sharpcorners, and gregmorriscards all have ~312,000 feedback (a fun coincidence) yet PWCC has more than 3x the number of followers as GM and 4x that of 4SC! And they certainly had even more than that before being banned from eBay. Marketing matters, and PWCC has learned this far better than their competition. Many other consignment companies have not. People in social media even do live PWCC auction watch parties. I just received a PWCC auction catalog in the mail this weekend. I get notifications from Probstein and PWCC on social media all the time, showing me cards that are up for auction that I never even would have thought to look for. I get email blasts from them as well. And PWCC organized thier listings intelligently. All 1950s baseball ending together around the same time, all 1990s basketball cards together, etc. People would log in and just sort PWCC listings by themselves and see what else was up for sale. This doesn't happen with other random sellers. And most sellers have next to zero followers, or just a few dozen. The only way their cards get seen is if someone specifically searches for that card and finds their listing.

Followers matter. Setting up your auctions in an organized manner matters as well. It's all about getting the most eyes on that listing. Say what you want about PWCC, but they were masters of this aspect of selling. Everyone else should be taking notes.

I do agree with you and you are not even taking into account the amount of independent advertising PWCC did to drive people to THEIR ebay site.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I agree with you here. It is certainly frustrating that the consignment companies have almost no control over who bids on their listings (other than adding someone to their blocked bidders list, which as has been pointed above caps out at 5,000 users and is insufficient for resolving this issue).



I have to disagree with you here. Your statement assumes that everyone is searching eBay the same way - i.e., they're all typing in '1955 Topps Roberto Clemente' into the search bar and when one shows up that they like, they just bid on it, and that furthermore, they are every bit as willing to bid the same amount regardless of who the seller is. But in practice, this is not how it works. People use eBay in very different ways.

First, there's the issue of buyer's confidence. Having nice clear images that you can zoom in on will always outsell another listing of the same card with blurry pics. Buying from a seller with supernova feedback of 100,000+ ratings will always outsell 'jimbob007' with his (18) feedback score. Obviously there's no shortage of other reputable sellers on eBay, but if you compare a company who does all of those little things right against the overall market, they're going to outsell the competition for those reasons alone. But the biggest factor in how much an item sells for is hands down the number of eyes a seller can get on that auction. And this is where sellers like PWCC and Probstein far outweigh the competition. Just click on the user name of a given seller and you can see how many followers they have. I build predictive models for a living, and I can guarantee you if I were to build a model to predict card prices on eBay, that not only would this factor correlate to auction prices realized, it would probably be the #1 most relevant factor in the model outside of the card itself and the slab it's in. Here's a quick comparison of a few consigment companies:

PWCC (312295) - 43,944 followers still today, despite no longer selling on eBay
Probstein123 (893960) - 57,861 followers
quickconsignment_802 (37054) - 2,682 followers
gregmorriscards (312064) - 13,665 followers
4sharpcorners (312086) - 9,321 followers
sportscardauctionscom (91092) - 4,046 followers
bigboydsportscards (345236) - 12,816 followers
pcsportscards (45465) - 6,371 followers

Note that PWCC, 4sharpcorners, and gregmorriscards all have ~312,000 feedback (a fun coincidence) yet PWCC has more than 3x the number of followers as GM and 4x that of 4SC! And they certainly had even more than that before being banned from eBay. Marketing matters, and PWCC has learned this far better than their competition. Many other consignment companies have not. People in social media even do live PWCC auction watch parties. I just received a PWCC auction catalog in the mail this weekend. I get notifications from Probstein and PWCC on social media all the time, showing me cards that are up for auction that I never even would have thought to look for. I get email blasts from them as well. And PWCC organized thier listings intelligently. All 1950s baseball ending together around the same time, all 1990s basketball cards together, etc. People would log in and just sort PWCC listings by themselves and see what else was up for sale. This doesn't happen with other random sellers. And most sellers have next to zero followers, or just a few dozen. The only way their cards get seen is if someone specifically searches for that card and finds their listing.

Followers matter. Setting up your auctions in an organized manner matters as well. It's all about getting the most eyes on that listing. Say what you want about PWCC, but they were masters of this aspect of selling. Everyone else should be taking notes.

All due respect but you're talking about pre-war collectors who have been on eBay for 20 years. They are not strangers to the search and they've been around since the days when you misspelled words on purpose hoping a seller did too.

Modern collectors are a different story and maybe there is something to Twitter and marketing when it comes to their tastes.

But this is the pre-war board and the issues raised have been centered on pre-war cards.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by packs

All due respect but you're talking about pre-war collectors who have been on eBay for 20 years. They are not strangers to the search and they've been around since the days when you misspelled words on purpose hoping a seller did too.

Modern collectors are a different story and maybe there is something to Twitter and marketing when it comes to their tastes.

But this is the pre-war board and the issues raised have been centered on pre-war cards.

I was talking about why PWCC listings sold for more than their competition on average. My comment didn't have anything to do with members of any specific forums. And I'm not sure how that would be relevant.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I was talking about why PWCC listings sold for more than their competition on average. My comment didn't have anything to do with members of any specific forums. And I'm not sure how that would be relevant.

It's relevant because you keep talking about followers, like Twitter or Instagram means anything to a pre-war focused audience (which, by the way, is what this page is dedicated to). These are not explanations for why one card sells for multiples of another by virtue of who's selling it. There are much more plausible explanations, none of which you will accept. This phenomenon is not new nor is it the product of some new marketing blitz or the pandemic. The same two sellers have had thread after thread posted about them for years, all which share a common theme: why did this card sell for this much? These questions date back to a time before your Twitter follower explanation. So it cannot be that and it must be something else.

The earliest threads relating to the same tired topic on this board date to 2013. I'd love to see a screenshot of the Twitter numbers then.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I was talking about why PWCC listings sold for more than their competition on average. My comment didn't have anything to do with members of any specific forums. And I'm not sure how that would be relevant.

Maybe because you are posting all this on what is specifically a, wait a second......pre-war card forum?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by packs

It's relevant because you keep talking about followers, like Twitter or Instagram means anything to a pre-war focused audience (which, by the way, is what this page is dedicated to). These are not explanations for why one card sells for multiples of another by virtue of who's selling it. There are much more plausible explanations, none of which you will accept. This phenomenon is not new nor is it the product of some new marketing blitz or the pandemic. The same two sellers have had thread after thread posted about them for years, all which share a common theme: why did this card sell for this much? These questions date back to a time before your Twitter follower explanation. So it cannot be that and it must be something else.

The earliest threads relating to the same tired topic on this board date to 2013. I'd love to see a screenshot of the Twitter numbers then.

I was not talking about Twitter. I am talking about the number of followers that these sellers have on eBay (see screenshot below) and how that has a positive effect on the hammer prices of their auctions. Whether or not members of this board are interested in Twitter or Instagram has absolutely nothing at all to do with the fact that the more eBay followers a seller has, the more views their listings will receive. Perhaps you were unaware that you can "follow" a seller on eBay? I don't know, but I assure you, this is a thing, and it's far more important than you apparently realize. This isn't rocket science. The more views a listing gets, the more money it will sell for. It's pretty simple. If you disagree with that fact, then I don't know what else to tell you. And if this point hasn't been made before in prior discussions about why PWCC listings sell for more than their competition, then those discussions were lacking one of the most important factors in that conversation, if not THE most important factor.

Originally Posted by BobC

Maybe because you are posting all this on what is specifically a, wait a second......pre-war card forum?

This is still completely irrelevant to the question of "why do PWCC listings sell for more than their competition?" This is the question I am addressing. I don't understand why anyone would think the fact that we are debating this question on a pre-war card forum has anything at all to do with what I'm saying. And even if I were talking about Twitter followers, as opposed to eBay followers, it still wouldn't negate the fact that having more eyes on your listings equates to higher prices. Whether those eyes come from members of this forum or from Twitter followers or Instagram followers or anywhere else.

I can't believe we're arguing about this. More eyes on your listings equate to higher auction prices. Please tell me you agree with this simple fact.

[packs]

Your explanation holds water only in a world where the sale prices have grown over time. The same questions have been asked for at least 8 years. All you have to do is search the acronym and hit Last. The number of followers have not created the marketplace. The marketplace created itself out of thin air, which has always been the impression the board has had, even as far back as 2013.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by packs

Your explanation holds water only in a world where the sale prices have grown over time. The same questions have been asked for at least 8 years. All you have to do is search the acronym and hit Last. The number of followers have not created the marketplace. The marketplace created itself out of thin air, which has always been the impression the board has had, even as far back as 2013.

I don't understand what you're saying when you write "The number of followers have not created the marketplace." Who said anything about creating a marketplace? We're talking about why PWCC cards sold for more than their competition.

If you're talking about overall market prices increasing across the hobby over the past 8 years, then that's an entirely different topic. But the answer to that question is surely not that it "created itself out of thin air". New buyers and new money entered the hobby. It's pretty simple. It isn't some artificial price inflation that came from thin air. It was also predictable.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I was not talking about Twitter. I am talking about the number of followers that these sellers have on eBay (see screenshot below) and how that has a positive effect on the hammer prices of their auctions. Whether or not members of this board are interested in Twitter or Instagram has absolutely nothing at all to do with the fact that the more eBay followers a seller has, the more views their listings will receive. Perhaps you were unaware that you can "follow" a seller on eBay? I don't know, but I assure you, this is a thing, and it's far more important than you apparently realize. This isn't rocket science. The more views a listing gets, the more money it will sell for. It's pretty simple. If you disagree with that fact, then I don't know what else to tell you. And if this point hasn't been made before in prior discussions about why PWCC listings sell for more than their competition, then those discussions were lacking one of the most important factors in that conversation, if not THE most important factor.



This is still completely irrelevant to the question of "why do PWCC listings sell for more than their competition?" This is the question I am addressing. I don't understand why anyone would think the fact that we are debating this question on a pre-war card forum has anything at all to do with what I'm saying. And even if I were talking about Twitter followers, as opposed to eBay followers, it still wouldn't negate the fact that having more eyes on your listings equates to higher prices. Whether those eyes come from members of this forum or from Twitter followers or Instagram followers or anywhere else.

I can't believe we're arguing about this. More eyes on your listings equate to higher auction prices. Please tell me you agree with this simple fact.

I'm not arguing that point all. You came on here and are directing your commentary to mostly pre-war collectors on a pre-war card forum, and that audience is typically older collectors who don't really care all the much about social media and this other garbage you keep spewing out as a contrarian and opposite of everything else that anybody seems to say or think. It's like you take no position or truly give any positive information about anything, just start posting everywhere in your contrarian manner. And it seems like all you ever post are things to go against what someone was saying, yet when they call you out or try to provide evidence to the contrary, you almost always come back saying you didn't say this or that, or that you actually don't believe what most normal people feel you are touting in all your posts. I grant you this, you are very good at the way you word what you say so that after the fact you can deny things that people initially are taking from your posts. Apparently others are aware of you and your antics as well. Thought I saw somewhere about you having a meltdown and getting kicked off BODA, or something like that. And if I'm mistaking you for someone else, I apologize in advance. But if I'm not mistaken, I guess the question is, do you do what you do intentionally to irk as many people as you possibly can, or do you truly not have a clue?

And by the way, what are you exactly, a data scientist and/or some kind of programmer, right? So exactly how does that make you an expert on the effects of social media and attracting customers and the business and other aspects of having followers equate to higher sales? Have you ever actually run a business or done marketing or the like? Your statements that PWCC always seems to get higher prices is because they have more followers can't be proven, any more or less than you can actually prove (or disprove) the reason they get higher prices is due to shill bidding. For all anyone knows, it could be (and very possibly is) a mix or combination of factors and not just the one main factor you are pushing, but you certainly don't know yourself more than anyone else. The more you go on and on, the more you start sounding like that other recent poster, Directly, who's main argument over and over again was that he was right and everyone else was always wrong. You're just able to use prettier words than he is.

And by the way, your own argument about more eyes equating to higher prices has a big glitch in it. Per your own post, you showed that Probstein actually had significantly more positive feedback and followers than PWCC, yet all everyone seems to talk about (on here at least) is how PWCC always seems to get the highest prices. So please explain this for everyone how Probstein isn't getting higher prices than PWCC then.

There are a lot of factors influencing all that is happening and still evolving around us in regards to things like this, and will we ever finally get all the answers, who knows? As I've often said, only time will tell!

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by BobC

I'm not arguing that point all. You came on here and are directing your commentary to mostly pre-war collectors on a pre-war card forum, and that audience is typically older collectors who don't really care all the much about social media and this other garbage you keep spewing out as a contrarian and opposite of everything else that anybody seems to say or think.

I told myself this thread had gotten to the teaching a pig to sing mile marker and was done with it. So, it pains me to do this, but he is not making a point about social media. His claim is that there is a correlation between higher card prices realized and higher eBay follower counts. In other words, the more followers an eBay auction house has, the higher prices they will achieve, all other things remaining the same.

That is his claim, anyways, as he hasn't actually presented any proof that would substantiate it. Nor has he addressed what they teach you on the first day of Data Analysis 101: correlation is not necessarily causation.

And by the way, what are you exactly, a data scientist and/or some kind of programmer, right? So exactly how does that make you an expert on the effects of social media and attracting customers and the business and other aspects of having followers equate to higher sales? Have you ever actually run a business or done marketing or the like?

I spent the first two decades of my professional career in electronics manufacturing and the most recent decade in oil and gas. Both are industries dominated by engineers. Indeed, my background is engineering. It is my observation that folks with technological backgrounds often assume that, because they have mastered one (or several) difficult subject matters, that they can reason their way to correct answers beyond those areas. So, go easy on him because he is a victim of his programming.

On a lighter note, I thought I'd share with Snowman how us grayheads used to bid on card auctions outside our hometown back in the day,