ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not wanting to sell a card at a loss is a completely irrational behavior that is only held by true collectors, not investors. Try putting yourself in an investor's shoes as opposed to your collector shoes for a moment. Instead of it being a Mayweather RC, imagine it was an investment in General Motors stock or Pfizer or pick some other random stock. Say 2 months after you bought it, the market crashes and you want to move some of your money around. Maybe you want to put it in gold or silver or into bitcoin or some other investment opportunity. Are you really not going to sell that General Motors stock for its current market price because you paid double what it's worth today? Really? Are you really telling me that nobody does this?

"Nope, I'm not selling my Pfizer stock until they net me a profit! I don't take losses, God dammit!!!"

This isn't some guy who's been saving up his paper route money until he finally had enough to land his holy grail Mayweather RC. This is someone with money to invest with no emotional connection whatsoever to their cards. He was never going to keep that card. He probably never even saw it in person. Just bought it on eBay, shipped it to his vault, kept it there, and then sold it from his vault so he could put the money in Bitcoin instead.

When it comes to this "I'm not taking a loss" subject, you have little understanding of what often drives human behavior.

Grown adults often do exactly what you're mocking there (with something like their Pfizer stock). They absolutely DO think your exact foot-stopping quote of "I'm not gonna sell until a get a profit!", regardless of what the sensible allocation of their investments should be going forward. Has nothing to do with whether it's a "collector" or "investor"; it's the same principle for anyone involved with a speculative asset. The only time that many can stomach and justify taking the loss is (as brought up above) when it's to offset capital gains.

It's easy for someone to get married to their purchase price (human nature for a number of unflattering or poorly thought-out reasons.) And on the flip side, they also take profits for the wrong reasons. Because what you "made" isn't the key factor either, except for tax purposes. Once you own something, the purchase price is a sunk cost. All that matters is what the value is now, what could happen going forward, your risk tolerance at the current value for that asset, what portion it is of your overall portfolio, etc. But I digress.

Rationality isn't what dictates decisions sometimes. Especially when it comes to this.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

When it comes to this "I'm not taking a loss" subject, you have little understanding of what often drives human behavior.

Grown adults often do exactly what you're mocking there (with something like their Pfizer stock). They absolutely DO think your exact foot-stopping quote of "I'm not gonna sell until a get a profit!", regardless of what the sensible allocation of their investments should be going forward. Has nothing to do with whether it's a "collector" or "investor"; it's the same principle for anyone involved with a speculative asset. The only time that many can stomach and justify taking the loss is (as brought up above) when it's to offset capital gains.

It's easy for someone to get married to their purchase price (human nature for a number of unflattering or poorly thought-out reasons.) And on the flip side, they also take profits for the wrong reasons. Because what you "made" isn't the key factor either, except for tax purposes. Once you own something, the purchase price is a sunk cost. All that matters is what the value is now, what could happen going forward, your risk tolerance at the current value for that asset, what portion it is of your overall portfolio, etc. But I digress.

Rationality isn't what dictates decisions sometimes. Especially when it comes to this.

Ya for sure. I agree 100%. A lot of people think this way. Especially with cards. But it's more of an emotional attachment. It's not rational or logical behavior. I didn't mean to imply that people don't act like this. I only intended to point out that there is also no shortage of people who don't. Of which I am one. I don't care one bit what I paid for something. I only make decisions based on what it's worth today. I also wanted to make the point that this mindset is more in line with an investor than a pure collector.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

When it comes to this "I'm not taking a loss" subject, you have little understanding of what often drives human behavior.

Grown adults often do exactly what you're mocking there (with something like their Pfizer stock). They absolutely DO think your exact foot-stopping quote of "I'm not gonna sell until a get a profit!", regardless of what the sensible allocation of their investments should be going forward. Has nothing to do with whether it's a "collector" or "investor"; it's the same principle for anyone involved with a speculative asset. The only time that many can stomach and justify taking the loss is (as brought up above) when it's to offset capital gains.

It's easy for someone to get married to their purchase price (human nature for a number of unflattering or poorly thought-out reasons.) And on the flip side, they also take profits for the wrong reasons. Because what you "made" isn't the key factor either, except for tax purposes. Once you own something, the purchase price is a sunk cost. All that matters is what the value is now, what could happen going forward, your risk tolerance at the current value for that asset, what portion it is of your overall portfolio, etc. But I digress.

Rationality isn't what dictates decisions sometimes. Especially when it comes to this.

Boy, is that ever true. How many times has a seller refused a reasonable offer based on "what I have into it?"

In the next couple of years I suspect we are going to see a ton of irrational "hold till it makes money" collectors. We don't have to reach back too far for that. Look at what happened after 2008-2009.

I had one amusing experience I can relate that's apropos of the subject. I paid a really 'frothy' price for a card in a 2008 auction. Several years later another collector and me were trying to work out a deal for my card but I just could not stomach the financial loss of an outright sale. Eventually, we decided to trade overpriced cards instead, because he'd bought a bunch of stuff in the same auction season that was totally upside down on too. I got a handful of cards from a set I liked more than the one I had and he got my albatross in return. We made the trade at the National and we were just laughing at the absurdity of what we spent versus what they were worth at that point. The cards I obtained will probably never be worth what they were worth when he bought them but they are in my PC until I stop collecting, so I don't really care.

[Republicaninmass]

Oh no, it's a whole new batch of collectors! They made so much in bitcoin and Tesla they NEED losses! Also, All the other collectors know the market and wont bid at the top, they wait a few months, even the plethora of underbidder. They somehow can time the market!

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Boy, is that ever true. How many times has a seller refused a reasonable offer based on "what I have into it?"

In the next couple of years I suspect we are going to see a ton of irrational "hold till it makes money" collectors. We don't have to reach back too far for that. Look at what happened after 2008-2009.

I had one amusing experience I can relate that's apropos of the subject. I paid a really 'frothy' price for a card in a 2008 auction. Several years later another collector and me were trying to work out a deal for my card but I just could not stomach the financial loss of an outright sale. Eventually, we decided to trade overpriced cards instead, because he'd bought a bunch of stuff in the same auction season that was totally upside down on too. I got a handful of cards from a set I liked more than the one I had and he got my albatross in return. We made the trade at the National and we were just laughing at the absurdity of what we spent versus what they were worth at that point. The cards I obtained will probably never be worth what they were worth when he bought them but they are in my PC until I stop collecting, so I don't really care.

Amazing how strong the force is. And no matter how many things go well, it can be so tough to even do it with just one or two bad apples.

In the face of so many cards that have gone up post-pandemic, there's one that I bought for a set last year that was a very mediocre price (but I never expected to move it and it's a tough card, so I went ahead).

Then I got an unexpected upgrade. Now, with no use for the first one, I am stuck with the fact that (after transactions costs going every which way), I may easily have to eat 10-15% selling it. No big deal at all.

But after all my being used to the "right" thing to do here, and all my preaching about it over the years, I still have such a tough time accepting a sensible offer (and haven't done so yet)

[Aj-hman]

ebay should figure out each shilled transaction and refund to buyer

ebay should ban them for as long as they were found to have been shilling

ebay should notify every buyer know to have a shilled transaction and give them the data so they can go to pwcc.

PWCC should figure how to be a decent company

What is PWCC response? Legal talk I am sure. Slimy lawyer talk!

I stopped buying pwcc 2 years ago and told anyone i knew bought cards.

there are other sellers that shill but its nice to cut one nut off the beast hope ebay cuts two to set a tone in the card world

[Peter_Spaeth]

No need to speculate about PWCC's response.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/faq#pwcc-ebay-update

Reproduced in part.

PWCC Marketplace/eBay Update

PWCC Marketplace/eBay Update
PWCC no longer uses eBay to sell items. PWCC will continue to host its Premier Auction on the PWCC platform. The August Premier Auction will close on August 21 as scheduled. The September Premier Auction will start as scheduled on September 1. The September Premier Auction will start as scheduled on September 1. To read our official statement, please click here.

How can you assure me that shill bidding is not taking place in the current and future Premier Auctions?
As part of our Marketplace Tenets, PWCC and our staff and affiliates have no visibility into any bidders' maximum bid. This information is stored in a third-party service and no one from PWCC or any affiliates of the sellers can view it, by specific design.

All bidders must be approved to participate in the Premier Auction. To apply, submit a brief application. Our team will review your application, contact you within 24 hours we need additional information, and notify you of your approval. This process can take several days, so please submit your application early.

What happens when somebody is caught placing a bid they do not intend to honor, known as shill bidding?
Our Marketplace Trust team is extremely proactive in monitoring bidding. We have placed permanent blocks on any bidder who does not pay. Refer to the Marketplace Tenets for more details on our monitoring procedures.

What will happen to my cards once the are pulled from eBay? WilI I get a notification that they have indeed been removed?
All Fixed Price and Flash Auction listings that did not sell and were removed from eBay will automatically be placed back into your Vault. All unsold items in our August Monthly Auction and submissions received for future auctions will be slated for sale in our new Monthly Auction, hosted on the PWCC website, which will launch in October. The new Fixed Price Marketplace will launch on the PWCC website on September 1, 2021, and the new Flash Auction Marketplace will be available soon.

What is PWCC's stance on shill bidding, and did PWCC participate in shill bidding on eBay's platform?
Shill bidding is a bid placed without the intention to honor it--regardless of who placed the bid. As outlined in our Marketplace Tenets, PWCC has clear rules that no one may place a bid unless that bid is intended to win the item--not consignors, friends of consignors, people who own other versions of the card, etc. PWCC has never engaged in nor condoned the practice of shill bidding or manipulating the card market. PWCC is proud of our work to ensure a trusted marketplace and unequivocally denies eBay's claims regarding shill bidding.

PWCC prides itself on creating a culture of integrity and trust. We understand its importance to our company, the industry, and collectors. For more than 20 years, PWCC has built its reputation with buyers and sellers—always putting the company’s values first. There are no circumstances under which PWCC would approve violating auction site policies.

Can I trust PWCC as a business moving forward?
Yes. We care deeply about this industry and we would never do anything to jeopardize its integrity. Many of our team members are lifelong collectors, too. We know trust is built over time and through a consistent experience. We hope that we have earned that trust from you and that we will continue to do so with our new platform. We are deeply committed to ensuring the bidding environment you deserve.

How will the split between PWCC and eBay affect the industry?
PWCC cannot predict short-term volatility that may arise from the PWCC and eBay separation; however, PWCC remains bullish on the future of the industry and looks forward to continuing its role as a leading marketplace for hobbyists and investors. To that end, PWCC had been building out its capacity to serve as a one-stop hub for customers. Hopefully, new initiatives like the PWCC Vault show our commitment to supporting the industry’s growth, integrity, safety, and success.

Will PWCC’s separation from eBay impact the safety of my items?
No. PWCC consists of three separate legal entities: the PWCC Marketplace, Capital, and Vault. There are no legal circumstances under which your items are at risk while using these services unless you have a personal legal matter that involves your property. Any legal matters that may arise between PWCC’s Marketplace entity and eBay do not impact the safety of your items. Your items always belong to you.

Can I still sell my cards with PWCC?
Since March 2021, our team of developers has focused on building and improving the Premier Auction experience which is currently live and has always been independent of eBay.

Sales through pwccmarketplace.com will be the foundation for the future Monthly Auction, Flash Auction, and Fixed Price Marketplace. The initial design of these marketplaces is in place, and we are committed to make them the most user-friendly, cost-competitive, and trusted tools in the industry. Although this platform shift happened sooner than planned, we are excited to launch the new Fixed Price Marketplace on our website on September 1, 2021 and our new Monthly Auction Marketplace this October.

What do I need to know about PWCC’s marketplace platform moving forward?
PWCC currently hosts its Premier Auction on the PWCC website. PWCC is widely considered the leading auction site for cards and memorabilia. Our customers appreciate PWCC’s presentation transparency, detailed item descriptions, advertising and promotions, and professional service. We expect the Premier Auctions’ success to translate to the Monthly and Flash Auctions, and Fixed Price listings on our platform. We also expect to retain the trust of buyers and sellers in the years ahead.

What can I expect from PWCC in terms of future plans and operations?
We are excited to roll out our proprietary Marketplaces specifically designed to meet the unique needs of this market and continue to offer excellent services to our clients.

In the meantime, PWCC conducts the Premier Auction each month for cards with a market value over $25,000, and we can always look to help you find a buyer privately. Please contact our Customer Service team, if interested.

[Republicaninmass]

Ebay builds a better mousetrap


Pwcc builds a better mouse

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aj-hman

ebay should figure out each shilled transaction and refund to buyer

LOL. Good luck with that. eBay can't even figure out how to increase the maximum number of blocked bidders above 5,000. They can't even take down an active listing that is currently being shilled despite multiple people reporting that auction for shill bidding. These guys are as incompetent as they come.

[Republicaninmass]

Blowout determined that an extremely high amount of stickers were on cards originally bought from pwcc, altered and regraded, and auctioned with pwcc a second time around.


Cards that were "prime" for alterations were bid up so high any other buyers would be scared off. These same cards, were altered, then returned to pwcc, auctioned for a second time with a HE sticker.

This was methodically, repeatedly and systematically done.

I'd wager youd only need to prove this a handful of times during discovery in a court of law to....get a result


Arent you tired of trying yet? Brent couldn't pay me enough to stick up for him. I do have morals though

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Blowout determined that an extremely high amount of stickers were on cards originally bought from pwcc, altered and regraded, and auctioned with pwcc a second time around.


Cards that were "prime" for alterations were bid up so high any other buyers would be scared off. These same cards, were altered, then returned to pwcc, auctioned for a second time with a HE sticker.

This was methodically, repeatedly and systematically done.

I'd wager youd only need to prove this a handful of times during discovery in a court of law to....get a result


Arent you tired of trying yet? Brent couldn't pay me enough to stick up for him. I do have morals though

Ah yes, "Blowout has determined..." Well I guess that's a closed case then isn't it? Lol.

Again, I'll wait for actual detectives to bring charges before I cast judgement.

Glad to see that 'RepublicanInMass' has "morals" though.