ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

except that the numbers you AREN'T throwing out have still been influenced by PWCC numbers.

It's a giant cluster fork.

[Yoda]

There was an interesting post this afternoon from one of the talking heads on U Tube offering a different scenario about this whole mess: Now that Ken Goldin is part of the CU family and about to launch his new platform, what better way to cripple one of your chief competitors, in this case PWCC, than to present to Ebay irrefutable evidence that PWCC has been shill bidding. Plausible, who knows.
The only character to complete the picture is Gary Moser.

[Peter_Spaeth]

From the new PWCC FAQ apologies if duplicate post. As I say presented without comment.

Shill bidding is a bid placed without the intention to honor it - regardless of who placed the bid. As outlined in our Marketplace Tenets PWCC has clear rules that no one may place a bid unless that bid is intended to win the item - not consignors, friends of consigners, people who own other versions of the card, etc. PWCC has never engaged in nor condoned the practice of shill bidding or manipulating the card market. PWCC is proud of our work to ensure a trusted marketplace and unequivocally deny eBay's claims regarding shill bidding.

PWCC prides itself on creating a culture of integrity and trust. We understand its importance to our company, the industry, and collectors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Now for a comment, Brent himself posted here that he knew in 2016 that a handful of people were "pushing" the market. That obviously entailed bidding intended to push the price higher, not intended to win the item. Now you could say that's OK as long as you do pay if you miscalculate, but that's not the issue, the issue is he just misspoke again. Geez.

The man needs a good lawyer. He should have kept the one he had.

Incidentally I can't find it quickly but there was a thread on Blowout listing an astonishing number of high dollar cards "won" in PWCC that apparently were not recognized by ebay as completed sales.

[Buythatcard]

One thing you have to remember there are 183 million buyers on eBay. Don't think that PWCC will get the same coverage selling on their own platform.

Now that some of these eyes will no longer be looking at PWCC, they will search for other places to seek out their cards.

It's a win-win situation for other Sellers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

One thing you have to remember there are 183 million buyers on eBay. Don't think that PWCC will get the same coverage selling on their own platform.

Now that some of these eyes will no longer be looking at PWCC, they will search for other places to seek out their cards.

It's a win-win situation for other Sellers.

But why, Howard? Not being on ebay hasn't hurt Heritage or REA or Goldin.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But why, Howard? Not being on ebay hasn't hurt Heritage or REA or Goldin.

Well, REA has built up their customer base outside of eBay. They have never been accused of shilling.

I think that many ebay buyers are not even aware of PWCC's shilling practices. Not all buyers belong to Forums where the topic is discussed. They will receive the eMail that eBay has sent out and now they will hear about it thru word of mouth. I think many of them will no longer bid over at PWCC after hearing about this. Many buyers are not comfortable bidding outside the comforts of eBay.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

One thing you have to remember there are 183 million buyers on eBay. Don't think that PWCC will get the same coverage selling on their own platform.

Now that some of these eyes will no longer be looking at PWCC, they will search for other places to seek out their cards.

It's a win-win situation for other Sellers.

Yes Howard, but I'd guess only a small percentage of that total are looking at cards.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Now for a comment, Brent himself posted here that he knew in 2016 that a handful of people were "pushing" the market. That obviously entailed bidding intended to push the price higher, not intended to win the item. Now you could say that's OK as long as you do pay if you miscalculate, but that's not the issue, the issue is he just misspoke again. Geez.

The man needs a good lawyer. He should have kept the one he had.

Incidentally I can't find it quickly but there was a thread on Blowout listing an astonishing number of high dollar cards "won" in PWCC that apparently were not recognized by ebay as completed sales.

I guess it's safe to say it is Jeff you are referring to?
Sorry I missed it, if it was spoke about in here, but what happened there?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by irv

I guess it's safe to say it is Jeff you are referring to?
Sorry I missed it, if it was spoke about in here, but what happened there?

I don't know the details. I speculate that Brent changed his mind and decided he didn't want to cooperate and plead to a charge, but instead wanted to fight. But that's just a guess. That deep into the representation there had to be some fundamental rift, IMO.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From the new PWCC FAQ apologies if duplicate post. As I say presented without comment.

Shill bidding is a bid placed without the intention to honor it - regardless of who placed the bid. As outlined in our Marketplace Tenets PWCC has clear rules that no one may place a bid unless that bid is intended to win the item - not consignors, friends of consigners, people who own other versions of the card, etc. PWCC has never engaged in nor condoned the practice of shill bidding or manipulating the card market. PWCC is proud of our work to ensure a trusted marketplace and unequivocally deny eBay's claims regarding shill bidding.

PWCC prides itself on creating a culture of integrity and trust. We understand its importance to our company, the industry, and collectors.

Comment:

[Peter_Spaeth]

A rather remarkable comment from a guy who, if nothing else, has been an outlet for decades for Gary M.

[Exhibitman]

Guys, before you use some dodgy tax evading mechanism, PLEASE consult someone competent in your state. Taxable events are not limited to transfer of possession; they also include transfer of title. For example, California Revenue & Taxation Code section 6010 defines "Purchase" as including either transfer of title or transfer of possession.

The fact that eBay doesn't collect the tax on an item shipped to OR does not mean you do not owe use tax on the item in your state. You received title to it, so odds are that your state considers you to have purchased it.

My uncle was a tax attorney. His advice to me was just pay the taxes and save yourself the headaches.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm moving to NH. Live Free and all that.

[Bobbycee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm moving to NH. Live Free and all that.

No Peter, it's better than that in NH:
"Live Free or Die"

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm moving to NH. Live Free and all that.

Until you get the property tax bill....

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Guys, before you use some dodgy tax evading mechanism, PLEASE consult someone competent in your state. Taxable events are not limited to transfer of possession; they also include transfer of title. For example, California Revenue & Taxation Code section 6010 defines "Purchase" as including either transfer of title or transfer of possession.

The fact that eBay doesn't collect the tax on an item shipped to OR does not mean you do not owe use tax on the item in your state. You received title to it, so odds are that your state considers you to have purchased it.

My uncle was a tax attorney. His advice to me was just pay the taxes and save yourself the headaches.

Adam, I said the same thing to check with their own tax advisors AND to be sure to check the specific sales tax rules for whatever state they are in. I certainly do not know everything about every state's laws, and all the constant tax law changes can drive anyone crazy. I got your CA point about the transfer of title and transfer of possession, but based on what Snowman heard from PWCC, there wouldn't be any CA sales or use tax due unless he took possession back in CA of cards he had won off Ebay, that went straight into the vault. So I wonder if the same thing would be true for something he won from an auction house (not Ebay) that also got sent right to the vault with no sales tax charged? If not, then it sounds like Ebay and/or PWCC had to cut some special deal with CA. Now Ebay cutting a deal with all the states to collect and remit sales tax on behalf of all their sellers I get. But PWCC suddenly having to possibly withhold and remit sales tax to CA on something they are just holding in a vault for a customer doesn't make any sense, unless it is something they had to agree to with CA in trying to get themselves set up tax-wise with all the states in advance of launching their new sales platform and operations. Now I'm even more curious as to what people using their vault actually signed up for and agreed to. Very odd if you ask me.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by BobC

Adam, I said the same thing to check with their own tax advisors AND to be sure to check the specific sales tax rules for whatever state they are in. I certainly do not know everything about every state's laws, and all the constant tax law changes can drive anyone crazy. I got your CA point about the transfer of title and transfer of possession, but based on what Snowman heard from PWCC, there wouldn't be any CA sales or use tax due unless he took possession back in CA of cards he had won off Ebay, that went straight into the vault. So I wonder if the same thing would be true for something he won from an auction house (not Ebay) that also got sent right to the vault with no sales tax charged? If not, then it sounds like Ebay and/or PWCC had to cut some special deal with CA. Now Ebay cutting a deal with all the states to collect and remit sales tax on behalf of all their sellers I get. But PWCC suddenly having to possibly withhold and remit sales tax to CA on something they are just holding in a vault for a customer doesn't make any sense, unless it is something they had to agree to with CA in trying to get themselves set up tax-wise with all the states in advance of launching their new sales platform and operations. Now I'm even more curious as to what people using their vault actually signed up for and agreed to. Very odd if you ask me.

The duty to remit isn't theirs, it is yours under the use tax rules.

I really would not trust anything someone at PWCC tells me about my tax obligations. Not only do they have no expertise and no duty to me to advise me accurately, they also have a huge disincentive to tell me the truth: money. What are they going to say, "yeah, you owe taxes even if you have the cards sent here, just eBay won't collect them, but if you ever get audited you will get nailed"? If they said that no one would use their dumbass service.